The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Is the indirect method superfluous?

  • Pin It
bardawil's picture
bardawil

Is the indirect method superfluous?

I spend the last couple days studying from some bread books.


 


I'm confused because at first glance the indirect dough method seems superfluous. Why can't all lean indirect doughs be made directly by adjusting the amount of yeast and fermentation time and temperature?


 


I think to get the right indirect -> direct conversion rate you need to approximate a few things (the rate at which amylase 'works' at different temperature, yeast metabolism rates at different temperatures, ...). Things won't be linear like all other bread 'math' formulas, but instead you will need to think about things like nonlinear growth stuff. Wouldn't be too hard.


 


If anyone wants to work on this with me, we could probably rewrite all indirect methods and make them seem a little easier:)


 


Maybe, I'm wrong though, convince me the indirect method can somehow produce simple sugar levels that direct dough methods can't with reduced yeast levels and longer and colder firmentation temperature.


 


Confused, Eric


 


 

davidg618's picture
davidg618

What is the indirect method?


David G

davidg618's picture
davidg618

I've never encountered that term in my readings. There are lengthy threads on this site re the effacacy of both methods. Although I frequently use both, I've nothing new to contribute.


David G

bardawil's picture
bardawil

the dough is made in two or more stages with a biga, sponge, etc...


 


my question is why not just make it in one stage  by adjusting the ingredients appropriately.


 


thx, eric

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Eric,


I have long been convinced that the use of a pre-ferment will produce a superior bread.   That said, I have no mission to convince you that this is the case.


Couple of thoughts:


ALL Competion Bread would be made using a quarter, or, half sponge, of at least 12 hours fermentation.   Volume in the finished product would be one of the key factors to be judged, and attaining greater volume by using a pre-ferment is a given.


Additionally, your premise seems to take no account of a number of other benefits derived from using a pre-ferment, especially the development of lactic and acetic bacteria [less than in sourdough, obviously, but there is greater complexity developing in indirect yeasted breads] for flavour, the immediacy of the ripening effect in the dough, and the improving qualities speeding up dough rheology using this system.


If you prefer to use direct dough with long fermentation, that's fine.   I'll stick with the indirect method, quite confident it produces numerous benefits not always attained from a more straightforward form of fermentation


That said, even Professor Calvel championed the direct dough system using long fermentation, so you are in good company.


Best wishes


Andy

bardawil's picture
bardawil

you made me think....


 


ALL Competion Bread would be made using a quarter, or, half sponge, of at least 12 hours fermentation. Volume in the finished product would be one of the key factors to be judged, and attaining greater volume by using a pre-ferment is a given.


 


....


this makes sense to me for one day competitions because in one day you can make bread with a pre ferment from 'scratch.' but you would need at least a 2-... day long competition time limit if you want to make a direct dough


 


.....


 


Additionally, your premise seems to take no account of a number of other benefits derived from using a pre-ferment, especially the development of lactic and acetic bacteria [less than in sourdough, obviously, but there is greater complexity developing in indirect yeasted breads] for flavour, the immediacy of the ripening effect in the dough, and the improving qualities speeding up dough rheology using this system.


 


 


......


 


YES! you are correct! I think the reason you are correct is because the four parameters lactic acid, acedic acid, simple sugars, and carbon dioxide can not be completely identified (controlled) with the pair of parameters time and temperature.You now have to introduce steps, or mix two different doughs together.


but can we chage all the books that only use commercial yeast strains? then time and temperature will allow you to identify any composition of bread without requiring 'steps'. Right?


 


-e