The Fresh Loaf

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cheat starter

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loribe's picture
loribe

cheat starter

before I knew of the 'right' way to make a starter, I made my starter following the directions in an old book I have called "Back to Basics" in which commercial yeast was used ...I know many people disapprove of this, but it was the first method I found  ...now it's also my understanding that the wild yeast in my flour will eventually take over the starter anyway & the commercial yeast will die off ...so question #1 ...what really is the difference then? ...and question #2 ...if I take a tablespoon of this weeks old starter & begin a new starter ...isn't this now a natural wild yeast starter?  thanks for the input!

yy's picture
yy

If the whole idea is to have the wild yeast take over eventually, then I don't see the need for the commercial yeast to begin with. First, it'll make it impossible to tell if you're getting any wild yeast activity in your starter, since the commercial yeast will be giving you a false reading. Also, the commercial yeast will be competing for resources with any wild yeast that may populate the medium. For the sake of maintaining control of your starter, I would omit commercial yeast from the process.


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to a wild starter in a week but it very well could have. 


If you take the tablespoon of starter and feed it, do so whenever it rises and falls in on itself but not more than every 12 hours.  A lot will depend on the room temp.  You could also reduce to just a teaspoon and add a tablespoon of water and enough flour to make a toothpaste consistancy and cover loosly.  Keeping the starter amount small until you want to build for a bake.  You will know the natural yeasts are there after a lull in the starter's preformance.  Wild beasties take longer to raise a loaf than instant yeast and their aroma is different…  "Wilder."  :)


I don't have qualms about starting a starter from instant yeast,  it can be done.  Go for it!


Mini

loribe's picture
loribe

thanks for the input ...the only reason I used commercial yeast to begin with was because that was the method in my book & that was all I knew;  until I started to search online recently ( and found this forum in the process)
 ...now I have learned how to do it without commercial yeast ...but since I already had a starter, I wondered if i could work off of that & convert it ( which is what I'm 'doing') ...this new starter is probably a week old now ...and I may take a teaspoon of that (a smaller amount like Mini suggested above)  & begin yet again
...I would think the wild yeast would take over - I have read that commercial yeast cannot survive in such acid anyway ...so if that is the case, then wild yeast have to take over ...the commercial yeast gets things going a bit faster but then die off as the enviroment becomes to acidic & the wild/natural yeasts wake up & take over ???  Please understand I am not 'telling' or saying this is so , I am asking if it is ... but it seems to make sense to me ...    I don't know :) 
the 'new' starter I made from my original commercial yeast start does have a more intense sweet-sour smell ...

Davo's picture
Davo

It might convert over, but it might take some time. The thing is, the commercial yeast will compete with the lacto bacilli, so getting to an acid environment that doesn;t suit commercial yeast will take some time.


WIld yeasts are predominantly maltose negative, they don;t feed on the maltose that amylase enzymes make out of damaged starch in the flour. They let the lactobacilli break the (disaccharide) maltose into monosaccharides, and then they (the wild yeasts) eat those. So they don't compete with lactobacilli and hence form a stable symbiosis.


Commercial yeast eats maltose and therefore competes directly with the very lactobacilli that you want to create the acid conditions.


The only thing you are getting any head start on is NOT sourdough.


Yes it will/may convert over, but it strikes me as like going to buy steak in order to become a vegetarian, eventually.

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

This would explain why my starter seems to be totally indifferent to the malt sometimes I add to the bread I'm preparing: there's not the slightest change in raising speed. The same doesn't apply to baker's yeast.

loribe's picture
loribe

but like I said ...I did this before I knew the 'right' way, not becasue I wa s trying to speed things up ...it just lead me to that question ...thankyou for the information - very helpful ...but the starter I made from this method is very tangy yet it shouldn't be without the lactobacilli??  or would it be another bacteria responsible for the tang? ...probably no telling ...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Add some malt (what kind?) and see if it makes a big difference!  :)

Davo's picture
Davo

Well, maltose is food for sourdough, but via breakdown by the lactobacilli. I would expect to see some more rise by adding maltose, but I guess it would be somewhat delayed compared to putting maltose to commercial yeast...


If it's tangy from acid, then I am guessing it does have lactobacilli in it. I'd guess that in any long term culture, it'd be hard to keep them out - I understand they will be on your skin, for instance. It's just that if you wanted to delay lactobacilli forming a stable symbiosis with wild yeasts, from what I've read, putting in a directly competitive commercial yeast is probably a good way to do that (delay getting a stable sourdough culture). Like I say, it will probably convert over eventually, but you would be better off just baking with yeast and separately making up a starter until you have your stable culture.