The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Hamelman three stage 90% rye sourdough

varda's picture
varda

Hamelman three stage 90% rye sourdough

In trying to digest all the helpful advice I received from this list on managing fermenting, shaping, scoring, proper sourdough culture and so forth, I found myself in areas of Hamelman where I had never wandered before.   I looked with some amazement at the instructions for Three stage 90% Sourdough Rye.  This uses the Detmolder method of rye bread production.   What struck me as altogether improbable, is that you start with a teaspoon - yes that is .1 oz, or less than 3 grams - of ripe starter and build it up to a pound and a half (672g) over the course of around 24 hours, in three stages with each stage oriented to developing a different characteristic of the starter.   I admit, I wondered if this would work for a mortal baker such as myself, but I happened to have the necessary ingredients around (more or less) so I set off to see if an actual bread could be produced.   The instructions in Hamelman (page 201 in my version of Bread) are quite clear.   I followed his three stages carefully - and starting with a teaspoon of starter, produced a very pitted and expanded rye starter by the time it was ready to bake.   The final dough calls for medium rye, which I didn't have so I used 60% white rye, and 40% whole rye.   The instructions call for a bulk ferment time of 20 minutes, and final proof of around an hour.   I had to call off the latter after 40 minutes because it had almost tripled in size  was getting too big for my stone.   The instructions called for scoring with a dough docker, which I don't have, so instead I stippled with a skewer.   The dough also seemed to stipple itself, so it was very holey by the time it was ready to go into the oven.   Finally the house filled with an almost overwhelming scent of toasted rye.   And an improbable loaf is now resting on my counter soon to be wrapped up in linen and cut and tasted tomorrow. 


The stippling:



and profile:



and finally the crumb:



It's hard to assess this, since I've never actually eaten this type of bread before, and I don't know either what it's supposed to look like or what it should taste like.   But just as a lay opinion on the matter, and after only a couple of bites, I would say yum!  

Comments

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Good for you, Varda!


Looking forward to your analysis of the taste and crumb.

varda's picture
varda

Hi LindyD,   My family wants to understand exactly why I'm not letting them at this bread yet.   When I say, but, but, but.... the crumb has to set, they look at me as if I'm crazy.   Hopefully all will be forgiven.   I'll try to get some pictures before the vultures descend.   Thanks for your comments.   -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)  Looking Good!   Be sure to save a slice or two to include as altus into the next loaf.   Seems to help slow the spreading.  I've also admiring the fruit bowl and was thinking how tempting to bake the next loaf in it or something similar for the longer proof time.   Just a thought.  :)

varda's picture
varda

Well now that you mention it, I have used that bowl for proofing before.   This dough was extremely wet and I didn't want to make any sudden movements or scare it or whatever so I proofed it on top of parchment paper so I wouldn't have to disturb it much to get it into the oven.   Also, there was no way to test it with the poke test, since that would have just left a hole in the surface.   Is there a way to figure out when a bread like this is proofed enough, other than it's taking over your kitchen?   And I still have that anxious feeling about Altus.   I don't know when I'm going to get over it.  Thanks for your comments.   -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Get your fingers good and wet and you won't stick to the dough.  If you were worried about poking a hole through the dough, then it does sound overproofed.  The crumb looks good so I'd say you didn't let it go too far.  Good instincts!  Yum!!!

varda's picture
varda

Gosh, this was more like clay than dough - hardly elastic at all at any point in the process.   I shaped it by patting it gently with very wet hands.   When I've made Jewish rye,  which has a significantly lower percentage of rye than this, if I pick it up to move it it still shows the impression of my hands after baking even if I get my hands good and wet.   I'm curious if I am doing something wrong - too much water perhaps?   Next time I'll try to take pictures during, though I'm a little too scattered to do that and bake correctly at the same time.  Anyhow, I really appreciate your insights.  -Varda

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

on the surface. When they begins to show up it's already becoming late.


Varda, a very nice bread. There's still a 10% in excess, though:)

varda's picture
varda

Great.   But it sounds like I need to see the potential for dots appearing as opposed to the dots themselves.   But you said "already becoming..." so maybe that means "not quite too...."   I'm starting to get the idea here.   The dots become holes and that means the dough is deteriorating, so don't let it get to that point.  And by 10% in excess you mean move onward and upward to 100% rye.   Rye chauvinists unite!   Thanks for your comments.   -Varda

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

when a lot of dots are visible it's time for the oven.

varda's picture
varda

Thank you.   I think I know what to look for.  Actually your first post was clear enough.   My brain just wasn't after some good rye bread and a bit of wine to wash it down.  -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

rising up and popping on the surface.  Anything about the size of pin head, BB or pea at the largest.  The surface will first get bumpy (if it was smooth) as bubbles make their way to the surface.  The dough should have a dome and not be flattening out when it goes into the oven.  The poke test, sorry, for really wet ryes, the paste does become spongy it just isn't the same as wheat doughs.  The spongyness growing inside the dough can be detected with a not so agressive poke test but any bubbles bursting on the surface is an indication it's high time that dough was in the oven.   


You might want to mix up a thick starter and put it into a glass take notes on it and play with it sniffing, poking and prodding to get yourself more familiar with rye esp. as it gets 3/4 way up to peaking.  Then when you're done playing with it, throw it into the next batch. 


Mini

varda's picture
varda

Mini,  This makes sense.   I was totally in the dark about what to watch for, so now I'll have something to go by.    Thanks!  -Varda

ehanner's picture
ehanner

That looks great Varda. The three stage Detmolder is a complicated recipe and you did a great job with it. I hope you enjoy the flavor.


Eric

varda's picture
varda

Thanks for your comments Eric.   Hopefully the first of many, and also a great instructor on how to build starters.  -Varda

ananda's picture
ananda

Welcome to the Wonderful World of Rye, Varda!


Great results when this is such new and strange territory.


So you'll have realised just how active a rye starter becomes with this sort of feeding regime.   Min's advice is excellent, as your bread is actually almost over-proved.   I'm making this assessment based on your description of pin holes already formed.   Rye pastes [I hesitate to call it dough!] become deeply unstable at this late stage in proof, and during the heat treatment cycle.   You have probably read Hamelman's discussion of how the starches in rye flour are knitted together by fibrous pentosans, which start to breakdown in the latter stages of the cycle.   Once this happens, there is no going back, so an over-proved rye loaf can look really bad.   Have you thought about doing these loaves in tins?   Mini's advice is really important, as it seeks to find a way for you to maximise proof, and avoid the inevitable "spread" which occurs in this type of bread, when made without some kind of supporting vessel.


Looking forward to reports of crumb..and, especially flavour. 


Best wishes


Andy

varda's picture
varda

Andy,  Hamelman instructions included adding an optional teaspoon of yeast, which I did, and in retrospect probably shouldn't have, given how active the starter was.   As for proofing in a bowl or other container, it seems that had I done that the loaf would have been even messier than it was, since the pressures of moving to the oven would have deformed it.   I think it's a great idea to try making this in loaf pans because it solves several problems at once.   I am assuming you have done that and it works fine.   Thanks.   -Varda    

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Varda,


Best help I can give in this is to look through my blog entries, here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/blog/ananda


There are quite a few entries involvig high rye breads made in tins


Yes, it's a good way to go; but catch the proof a trifle earlier.


I concur with yeast, and Hamelman hints as much.   You do not need the yeast; it's a safeguard.   But given you created a great culture, the extra yeast just gets in the way!


BW


Andy

varda's picture
varda

Yes, I certainly will.   Thanks for the suggestions.  -Varda

joan douglas's picture
joan douglas

Dear Varda,


 My name is Joan and a few months ago I stasrted an "at home" bread baking business. I, and with practice, have become good at sprouted grain, flax seed and oatmeal bread. I have been timid when it comes to rye although I have been getting many requests. You would laugh if you could see the 45 pound container of rye grain that has been sitting on my kitchen floor. It is time for me to get beyond being stuck and to just remember this is supposed to be fun. What a wonderful thing it is to create and experience the  the elemental essence of what we do when we bake! Thanks and take care, Joan  

varda's picture
varda

Hi Joan,   I started baking bread around a year ago, driven at least partially by what shall I call it - ok an obsession - to recreate a rye bread I remembered from my youth.   So that pushed me right into the belly of the beast.   I think wheat bread with it's flubber type properties can give a lot of positive reinforcement to the beginning baker even when you don't know what you're doing, but rye is much more fussy and demanding and unforgiving.   There are great rye bakers on this site who create wonderful things (look at the blogs of the people who responded to my post) but at this point I feel like I've won when I create something edible.   So anyhow, that is to say, if you want to bake rye, don't start with detmolder - something easier with a lot lower percentage of rye.   I'm curious if your customers have made specific requests for certain types of rye bread or just interested in rye in general.  But use that big barrel of rye grains.   It wants to be bread.  Good luck.  -Varda

joan douglas's picture
joan douglas

Hi, Varda,


The customers I sell to would like sour dough rye. Perhaps that is over my head at this point and maybe I should start with a simpler bread like a rye and caraway seed bread. Are you familiar with the Weston Price philosophy of eating? The customers I sell to like the ingredients in my bread and the fact that I grind the grain right before baking.


I would like to know how you would make a sour with rye.  I have read several approaches and have tried mixing a combination of rye and hard red wheat to make a starter. When I use a combination if red and white to grow wild yeast for whole wheat bread the response is great. When I combine rye and red wheat I do not obtain the same yeast growth. Your comments would be appreciated, Joan

varda's picture
varda

Joan,    I don't think a sour dough rye should be too hard to start with.   Just not a sour dough rye with too high a percentage of rye flour versus wheat.   For instance for Jewish rye, you only have rye flour in the rye sour (read that rye starter) and then add wheat flour to the final dough.   It also uses yeast, so not all the rising capacity has to come from the starter.   Do you have a healthy wheat sourdough starter going?   If so, it is easy to build a rye sour from it.   You take a couple of ounces of the starter (whatever it is) and then build it up in several (2-4) feedings with rye flour and water to between a half pound and a pound, depending on what you need,  with around 4 hours between feedings, and then left overnight after the last one.   The consistency should be thick and pasty, not liquid but very slick and wet.  If the original starter you are using is active and healthy, this should just work.   What books do you have?   I have used only Greenstein's Secrets of a Jewish Baker, and Hamelman's Bread for rye breads.   I know there are other good ones out there.   Just taking a quick look at Hamelman I see Light Rye Bread on page 197 that has a fairly low percentage of rye.   I also used a combination of Greenstein and some excellent comments on this site to come up with an approach to Jewish rye, which I write about here.   http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20506/jewish-corn-rye and here where I used different flours:  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21310/authentic-tzitzel-i-can-make.   Anyhow, if you are using fresh grains, you will undoubtedly make something delicious.  -Varda