The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Now that I've got "spring" how do I get big air (holes)?

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winestem's picture
winestem

Now that I've got "spring" how do I get big air (holes)?

Thanks to the answers on this board, I've now got loaves that are looking and tasting wonderful! I'm making Tartine-type bread and no-knead bread with my wild yeast. But, never content with the status quo, I'd like my crumb to be airier, with bigger holes. Any suggestions?

jowilchek's picture
jowilchek

Winestem, I'm with you. Not satisfied with my crumb. I live in the states (Georgia to be exact, which for those of you not in the states, is in the deep south). I have been told that I will never get the great crumb that the Europeans achieve due to the flours available here...Anyone know if that is true or should I just keep trying for the great crumb I see Europeans posting. Any advice would be appreciated. And one thing you should know is I have tried every brand of flour I can get my hands on and it pretty much gives the same results. Could it be something as simple as the flour and why don't the Europeans export their flour? Is it called "00" or "05" or something like that?


Sorry lots of questions..............


jowilchek, thanking you all!

KMIAA's picture
KMIAA

Hi, I live in Georgia.  I use King Arthur Flour which I buy at Ingles or Publix, and use it for my breads, and I have no problems with getting large holes.  What type of bread do you make?  I normallly make french bread, or italian bread.  I also make rye, which does have holes but not as much as the other breads I bake.  Flours I use, are AP King Arthur, or Bread Flour, King Arthur for the white bread, and a combination of rye and all purpose for my rye bread.  I also, make pumpernickel that I have been successful the last few times making it to get more holes than when I first tried making the bread.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

How the creators of pumpernickel in Westphalia will rotate in their graves... Or is it just that Americans call everything made with some rye meal: "pumpernickel"? Pumpernickel was supposed to be so dense and chewy, that only men who could cut it in halves with one stroke of their swords were considered manly - everybody else was a wimp...


Karin


 

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

That's stout stuff!  You've probably noticed, Karin, that the term "pumpernickel" is rather badly used in the States.  There are bakeries producing "pumpernickels" that contain less than 50% rye flour and no rye meal whatsoever.  And their color comes from the addition of deeply caramelized sugar, not from a long bake at falling temperatures.  Biting into an authentic pumpernickel, after being accustomed to the commonly available "pumpernickels", is a real revelation.  It's not unlike the difference between a sturdy, hearth-baked miche and the spongy "artisan" breads available at most supermarkets.


Paul

hanseata's picture
hanseata

You are right!


But probably you would wonder, too, if you bit into a muffin in a German bakery (they have them sometimes) and found it to be dense and chewy, like a pound cake, because not mixing something thoroughly goes entirely against a German baker's grain.


Cheers to the rye-hards,


Karin


 

K.C.'s picture
K.C.

In the U.S. flours are typically graded by their protein level. As the bran and germ are removed the bulk of the flour is reduced and protein levels go up. AP flour is typically 10-12% protein. Pastry flour is 9% protein, cake flour 7%-8% and bread flour 14%-16%. Whole wheat flour can be as low as 5%.


In Europe flours are graded by how fine they've been milled. They are graded as 1, 0 and 00. The mistake that many make is assuming that finely milled flour is low in protein. Depending on the type of grain used the finest flours can be bread flour though they feel finer than cake flour in the U.S..


No matter where in the U.S. you live you can make bread with an open crumb and big wholes. If bread flour is not readily available make your own by milling from whole grain and sifting to your desired consistency or buy flour and add gluten.


http://www.arrowheadmills.com/product/vital-wheat-gluten.


In addition to high protein the major components of an open crust are high hydration, 75% or higher and long bulk fermentation. 

jowilchek's picture
jowilchek

I read a comment by prof5 about this subject and he said it has a lot to do with fermentation, the bulk fermentation. So Thursday when I start my dough I am going to do a bulk fermentation of about 4-6 hours and see what happens.........If I find that post again I'll share it with you but I think I read it right

rjerden's picture
rjerden

Jowilchek,


If you live in the Atlanta area, you can buy Delverde Italian 00 flour at DeKalb Farmers Market on East Ponce De Leon in Decatur. It's sold in 1 kg bags for $ 1.89. I just bought 20 kg of it and my rosetta rolls and grissini are coming out fantastic.


Cheers,


Roy

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Here's a good link to read relating to crumb.


Jowilchek, if you want to see great bread (with lovely open crumb) made with American flours, you need go no further than the blogs of some of the long standing TFL USA members.  Spend some time browsing through the blogs.  There's much to be learned there.


Flour is just one aspect of bread. It is the skill of the baker that brings out the best of the flour in terms of flavor, appearance and crumb.

jowilchek's picture
jowilchek

Thanks LindyD I will continue my research, how do I know which members are from the USA? Ask? or is there some code?


thanks for taking the time to reply and I will check out the link "crumb"

jowilchek's picture
jowilchek

Thanks, great site with good information, just wish they had more to read...it is rather a small web site, but still great for reference and information. Thanks and Happy New Year!

LindyD's picture
LindyD

If you're looking for more reading material (in addition to the thousands of pages on TFL) do check out the Links tab at the top right of the page. 


Happy New Year to you!

LindyD's picture
LindyD

If you click on the name of the TFL member, be it in a blog or a forum message, that will take you to the user profile which, in most cases, lists the location.


Also, if a formula lists KAF, Guistos, Arrowhead, Heartland, GM flours - those are all US flours.


Enjoy browsing the blogs.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
madruby's picture
madruby

Hi Winestem and Jowilcheck,


Someone was looking for an easy French bread recipe the other day on the thread


Artisan Baking:French bread recipes


and I provided one (look under comment by madruby).  It is a recipe I got after taking a bread baking class given by a professional French baker.  It is a fairly simple one; there is no kneading, just a stretch and fold (twice) and I thought it made for a great crust and holy crumb.  I have used that recipe several times after my class and it has always turned out very good.


Furthermore, in terms of airy crumbs, I have thoroughly enjoyed Peter Reinhart's wet lean and French bread recipes from his book ABED.  His dough is sometimes on the higher hydration side but that is also what makes the crumb very holy as well.  On the other hand, I cannot vouch that I have had consistent results with his recipes with every single bake bcuz I have found his wet dough a little more difficult to manipulate and shape.


Hope this helps....


Happy New Year!

madruby's picture
madruby

I finally got around to making SteveB recipe for baguette with poolish this evening.  The end result was outstanding.  Oven spring was great (now that I've been using SteveB steaming technique) and the crumb had holes that were holier than the Pope (excuse my little French Canadian expression - it had to come out that way!).


Here is the link to that recipe/blog:


http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=8&cpage=2#comment-3058

winestem's picture
winestem

TFL's website is amazing. More than MANY lifetimes of information are in it and I've only begun to scratch the surface.


Thank you all for the positive feedback for this "newbie"! 


As I write this I've got a loaf in that I made much wetter than before. I think it is probably closer to the ciabatta recipes than the more traditional no-knead recipe, but the thing is blasting off like a rocket ship so with luck I'll have some great open crumb. Pictures to follow!

winestem's picture
winestem

Here is the beginning:


 


pancake


 


Then the magic!


 


bread


 


and the holes are bigger than I've managed before!


 


"holey" progress

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)  And now you're ready for roasted seeds and such! (While you're playing with bubbles!) Don't blast off the planet just yet. 


What a great way to start off the new year...  with an oven full of new ideas that work!

winestem's picture
winestem

Point the way, Mini Oven! Where should I be looking on this board from some recipes?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

many are greatly improved if roasted first before diving into the dough, most can be added to the dough without too much fanfare.  Try some and see!

PeterPiper's picture
PeterPiper

I've found one of the keys to really holey bread is high hydration and a gentle touch.  I've modified a no-knead ciabatta recipe to be as simple as possible.  With high hydration and a long ferment, you don't have the handle the dough at all except to give it a mix before pouring it out on your parchment and putting it right in the oven.  Huge holes and great crust!  You can find it here.


Happy baking,


-Peter

winestem's picture
winestem

And do I put in the seeds with the flour and water and wild yeast and let them all "stew" together?

jowilchek's picture
jowilchek

PeterPiper, Funny thing, I just printed out this formula...and plan on trying in the next day or two. My first Ciabatta was a hit had to give my sis and her husband some for the road (to take home with them when they left my house). It was a formula from SteveB "double flour/double hydration". Although it was difficult for me to work with such a wet dough (because I am not use to it), I hope the more wet doughs I work with the more comfortable I will become with them. Thanks for all the imput and suggestions from TFL folks and one thing I know for sure...my not so perfect homemade breads are still a lot better than the store bought tasteless stuff they pass off as bread.

PeterPiper's picture
PeterPiper

Good luck with it.  I think it's about the easier bread in the world to make and is very impressive.  Just don't be afraid of high heat.  A little darker color and some crispiness really make this ciabatta outstanding.  Happy baking


-Peter

pjaj's picture
pjaj

I've only made it once, but Jasons Ciabatta will give you big holes every time.


It oftern shows up as "Quick Ciabatta" in the column on the right hand side of this page.

winestem's picture
winestem

Thanks for the suggestions! Great stuff!


ciabbata

winestem's picture
winestem

I did it! Finally! Thanks to this Board, I stopped overproofing and here's what I made this past weekend:


 


Boule


And this lovely:


 


bombe


 


And best of all, the taste was amazing.bigair

PeterPiper's picture
PeterPiper

Wow, beautiful bread.  Doesn't it feel good to create something like this with your own hands?  I'm still fiddling around with a naturally-leavened ciabatta that will have huge holes and good flavor.  One thing I need to remember to do is dimple down the dough right before baking so the nice air holes don't join up and form a mega-hole.  Let's just say I oppose unionization when it comes to air pockets in bread!  Here's how the last one came out.



Happy baking!


-Peter

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

And you've got holes!  What a crust! 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Karin

winestem's picture
winestem

I'm a crust-lover. I admit it. I would buy Tartine bread all day long and just eat the crust and throw away the crumb...but I'd go broke doing it, so now that I'm coming up with some wonderful crusts, I am in heaven!