The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Simple guide to panettone cases?

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Simple guide to panettone cases?

Hi All,

I am hoping to do my first panettone this year. Am just gathering together the gear and the fruits and flour for a test run.

I hope to be able to buy panettone cases or make something a bit like them. They are very rare here in the UK, though. Have seen them online at Bakery Bits and other sites but not in the flesh.

I have a very basic question of anyone who has used them, before I end up with the wrong size. What do I need for 500g of dough?

I am hoping to make panettone with that weight pre baking. Do cases that say they are for 500g have a 500g capacity when full or do they in fact have a larger capacity allowing an initial 500g of dough that starts off halfway up the case to end up over the top when baked? 

If 500g is the full load after expansion, do I start with 250g lower down the case? If case dimensions are inches or centimetres does anyone know what size would be good for a 500g loaf?

Sorry, I know these are really simple questions. I have had some great Italian panettone from the shops but have never seen the cases in my tiny life :-) I can't just pop into the shop and get 'em or have a good look at 'em and I don't want to risk ordering a run of something online that turns out not to be right.

Thanks for your help, fellow festive TFLers.

Kind regards, Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi sgratch,

Good to hear from you! I guess we are in the same boat then as first time panettone makers.

Thanks for the information on the Bakery Bits cases. Those are the ones on my wishlist so it's good to know how they work.

Yes the big freeze made a massive difference, didn't it? Sent my starters into a slump. I had to put them on a water dish to wake them up.

If you panettone tasted good that is the main thing :-).

Wishing you good baking this weekend! 

Best wishes, Daisy_A

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I made my first batch of pannetone and did not have pannetone papers. I would have had to order them and just didn't plan it in time for the bake. I was going to bake smaller,individual loaves. SO,I took a walk down the canned vegetable aisle at the grocery store and decided the tins of mandarin oranges would do for the small loaves and the tins of sliced water chestnuts were perfect for the next size up. I bought 6 water chestnut cans and 8 mandarin orange cans.( I'm trying to come up with imaginative menu ideas now for oranges and water chestnuts!) I cut a large square of parchment paper and fit it into the can by laying the paper over the top of the can,centering the paper over the opening, and then using a slightly smaller can to jam it into the can.Make sure the folds are all tightly pressed and smooth.Spray it with pan release and I was ready to bake.

I used floydm's pannetone recipe on the home page of FreshLoaf-just click on the picture. See my comments in the thread. I thought the amounts of fruit may have been too much-it was more like fruitcake than fruited bread. I would decrease the fruit by half to 2/3!. I think because the dough is rich and there is so much fruit, it does take a long time to rise anyways.I finally put mine in the refrigerator overnight and then shaped it the next morning. Then it took 8 hours to proof once it was in the "pans" and while it didn't raise much, it was adequate. Even tho they are much more dense with fruit than I thought they should be, they were very delicious.

So look around and see if you have any "pannetone pans" in the cupboard!Tins with no ridges and no lining  are best.Use whatever size you want and fill it 2/3 to 3/4 full. The parchment paper should be cut in a square that is the diameter of the "pan" plus 3 times the height of the can. SO a can with a 4 inch diameter and a height of 3 inches would need a square parchment of 4 inches plus (3x3in)=13 inches. 

Have fun!

 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi clazar123,

Many thanks for your message and giving such a detailed response! I can get the picture of what you did with the tins. Sounds good. Were you able to put the goods in the freezer?

I had read you could use coffee tins. We have Illy which are well moulded but they used to have a really sharp lip on them that would cut your finger. Someone must have mentioned this to them as they have rounded it off. Had a burst of creativity and started moulding a case on the outside of the tin, based on an Ehow page. Brought back memories of childhood cutting and sticking! Will see how that goes. However I can see that using the tin itself would give even more suppport.

Thanks for giving such a clear guide about what size paper to use - appreciate it!

Best wishes, Daisy_A

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Have you seen the paper bags over at wildyeastblog  she made to use for her pannetone molds...in recipes.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Sylvia,

Thanks for this. What Susan did looks good. Particularly when the panettone are all tied up with ribbon.

I had a go at the origami basket. Came out well and I am currently using it to store things in. 

Might try this for a low cake but I would like to make some high ones also. Thanks for the link.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy,

my rule of thumb is this: the amount of dough fit for a given paper is (in kg)

weight = 1.15*(volume of paper/3)

maybe even 1.20. Panettones seem to be a very irregular bake: you can do it 30 times with the same recipe and procedure and still get 30 very different results. For sure it's absolutely the most challenging sweet dough to make (among italian cakes, at least), even worse than pandoro (that requires lamination).

Generally I use 900 gr of dough + 250 of fruits in a 3 litres paper.

 

Usually I soak the raisins overnight in a blend of water with some limoncello, then drain and dry them in a towel. This method (although not at all traditional) results in a wonderfully aromatic panettone!

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,

Thanks for your message! It is really useful to have a basic formula that I could approach different size cases with. 

We have limoncello - yeah! Absolutely one of my favourite liqueurs. We also have a wonderful aromatic grappa, orange flower water, vanilla bean and some lovely candied peel. So good to go on the aromatics :-). 

Take your point about the challenges of panettone. Am doing a 'Beta' version. However, from what you say if they come out differently every time I won't necessarily be able to reproduce what I do on the test. Will probably give a report but won't parade it if it's not pretty! Am most concerned about try to mix this by hand. Any tips on hand mixing received gratefully. We shall see...

Appreciate your advice. Best wishes, Daisy_A

 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy, you need a super high gluten flour to make panettone, absolutely the strongest you can get. Flours for this kind of dough are very specific and hard to get unless you are a professionist baker. With flours available to the public the dough will come out super sticky and very difficult to work by hand. I made it several times slamming repeatedly the dough on the buttered surface, but every time it took me more than 1 hour and  a lot of patience. You had better get a kneading machine:-)

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,

Thanks for the advice. I read 'Manitoba' in the Italian recipes and I have an all-Canadian strong white. Have tried it on a dough ball and it is super strong.

Some recipes are 100% Manitoba, some are cut with 00 though. I was thinking 66% Canadian 33% 00 as 100% 00 seems a bit tough for the yeasts. What proportions do you think?

Kneading machine? I wish. Will have to see what I can beg, borrow or steal. LOL. Maybe there are some secret kneaders around my neighbourhood. There is a community house where they have to cook for large groups. Wouldn't want to leave them short of bread, though, while I knead my hand made panettones...

Appreciate all the advice.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy, these last two years I made literally dozens of panettone and every time I used 00 flour I repented my choice. Italian flours are very very weak, they don't hold a long fermentation and they don't develop a strong gluten. In short they are garbage. I'd use all manitoba/strong flour for this kind of dough, especially if you choose one of those recipes with a lot of butter and yolks and little flour. The recipe I linked in the "Colomba" thread is very forgiving and somewhat  "light", but generally panettone requires many more fats and less flour than that: it's not uncommon seeing something like 180 gr of butter, 140 of yolks, 120 of sugar for only 300 gr of flour.

Simili sisters' recipe is light, too, but I find it less tasty.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Will put Canadian to lead horse, then :-). Best wishes, Daisy_A

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello nicodvb, what a great idea - Limoncello-soaked raisins for panettone!
I can't wait to try that. 
Thanks too for the weight to volume calculation, and for your post here, regarding rising volume: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21019/pannetone-can#comment-146812
So incredibly helpful!  Thanks so much!

Daisy_A, I hope all is going well with your panettone!

Regards, breadsong

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,

I reckon the 134mm cases should take about 500g of Panettone dough.

We bake these in 5" cake hoops in College.   I think our scaling weight for this, slightly small size, is 400g.

Hope this helps

Best wishes

Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,

Thanks for your message. Useful to know what dough fits which volume case.

Haven't lashed for cases yet, although the 134mm appeal for a larger amount. Have managed to mould one of similar volume but slightly taller and thinner round the outside of a coffee can, just to do a test run. Wonder if taller and thinner would bake out differently? Might make two more shorter ones for 250g each.

Am woefully short of equipment for baking sweet goods. Have a cake hoop but think it is a bit bigger. Thanks for that possibility. Had read that the cases had a perforated bottom. Do these bake out okay in metal. Had seen some metal panettone moulds. I have rounded metal steamed sponge and jelly moulds. 

Just a question about the sponge in the panettone formula you sent. If I do not have old sponge and am starting a 100% sponge from scratch, how much percent fresh yeast would I use and how long approximately would I let it mature or what signs of maturity would I look for? 

Any tips on hand mixing enriched doughs also gratefully received.

Hope all is good where you are. Is a bit brighter here, tho' still cold.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,

I'll have to pm you on these matters.   Will try to get back to you before the weekend starts

BW

Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Just if you have time. Look forward to hearing from you.

Won't be starting right away as snowed under with work. Just gathering gear and info. at the moment. Appreciate all your help.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

turosdolci's picture
turosdolci

I have a recipe and a link where you can buy the paper cups.  I would also say that  the fruit is really the ingredient that gives Panettone its unique flavor.

http://turosdolci.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/panettone-a-traditional-sweet-bread-is-a-symbol-of-christmas-greetings/

I make it all the time and use leftovers to make bread pudding which I will post within the next few weeks.  

Best of Luck, as these make great gifts and also freeze well.

 

Regards,

Patricia

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for this. I'm glad to have a recipe from such an experienced baker.

Thanks for the link. I wish I could buy from Fantes - that would be great! Not sure if it's viable to the UK. Thanks for the recommendation, though.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

turosdolci's picture
turosdolci

Panettone, 

I use 00 which I buy in Italy.  I also buy my paper cups from a supplier in Switzerland but he doesn't ship. It is very important to get the right cups because the paper is oiled and helps to keep the panettone fresh for a long time. I'm sure you have searched the web in the UK, and I'm sorry i didn't realize that is where you lived.  Try bakery supply sites, they sometimes carry them especially this time of year and there are so many good Italian restaurants and cafe's in the UK. If you still can't find them, I can give you the name of the supplier I have in Switzerland, his wife speaks English and you can ask if they can ship them to you.

Regards,

Patricia 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Patricia,

Thanks for the message. No problem about UK location. I do have 00 flour, an organic one imported from Italy. I can also get the proper cups at Bakery Bits in the UK. Will look at some Swedish sites also, though, as they do seem to be very good for baking. Zeb just put me onto a Swedish shop in London, which has pearl sugar, which is very difficult to get here, but no moulds, sadly.

Am just trying parchment for this test run in case I haven't got the touch. Am only just getting into sweet baking. Have made a sort of paper case out of parchment moulded around a coffee tin just to see if I can make the thing at all! Have pierced the bottom of the parchment with a corn fork as I read that the bottom of the bought cases is perforated to prevent build up of humidity.

Would like to use the proper cases for gifts and it is good to know that about the oil. Thank you. If the test run goes right I hope to make some more nearer Christmas. 

Thanks for all your advice. Much appreciated.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,

Just a question that I thought of afterwards. When using the cases do you need to put them on a tray or straight onto the oven rack?

Thanks, Daisy_A

kateq's picture
kateq

I love the limoncello idea -- and happily have a lot of it.  While I know this doesn't help in the UK, Sur La Table carries various sizes of the paper molds in their stores and on line. 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint, Hi All,

Came across an authorised version of the Tartine panettone, which uses a poolish of dry yeast.

On this link

http://lacucinaitalianamagazine.com/recipe/tartine-bakerys-panettone

Best wishes, Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hope it taste as good as it looks, Daisy ;-)

Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Have to wait 2 days to cut it, apparently. Gonna be like a kid at Christmas LOL.

Have to say that the raisin water leaven made a lovely, workable dough. Will highlight that in the write up.  Am sure the yeast helped to get such a sweet dough through a good proof without breaking down :-)

Best wishes, Daisy_A

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Would it be possible to re-post the link to air kneading? The image below the link above isn't connected to anything. You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words, triple that with video.

Eric

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Eric,

The video that contains air kneading is available on the Bread Matters site at 

http://www.breadmatters.com/

I got to it by pressing the black screen and the pause/play icon on the slider below, as shown on the screenshot below.

It is good that people are interested in this. However, as indicated to Khalid,  it can take a long time to load. Sometimes loading time is as long as 10 minutes, which is why a lot of people, myself included, have thought it is not working. 

I tend now to start it up then make a cup of tea or do something on another screen. I often forget about it too and my dh and I are then startled when the video starts up with Andrew Whitley saying 'I'd like to see your rye sourdoughs, those of you that brought them'. I've never heard Whitley talk before but I should have realised he would have an authoritative voice, given that he worked for the BBC. Honestly, nearly had me running to the kitchen for the sour!

I can't do what he does (rotate dough in one hand, pull with other), for more than a few minutes at a time yet. So when I get tired I stretch and fold continuously in the air, pulling the dough into a 'toffee thread', folding it back, turning 90 degrees, pulling again). It is a very effective technique, though. I should write and let him know.

Best wishes, Daisy_A

 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Lindy,

Thanks for this! This is what I started with, the description in the book. 

I did find when looking at the video that I hadn't been holding the dough as he describes it in the book and as he shows in the still above - just in the fingertips.

Will have to practise that! Had been sort of concertina-ing it between more open hands. Still worked well but more chance of dropping it!

Kind regards, Daisy_A