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Please help a newbie fix the AB in 5 master recipe (gummy and yeasty)

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MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Please help a newbie fix the AB in 5 master recipe (gummy and yeasty)

Okay, so I know not everyone on here is a fan of AB in 5 but it's a start.  This is my first stab at a whole wheat recipe and boy, does it stink.  Guess we all have to start somewhere.  I've still got enough for 2 loaves in my fridge and I'd appreciate if someone could give me some suggestions so my dough doesn't go to waste.


I followed all of the instructions to a tee, except that I let the dough rise considerably longer.  Last night after the initial mixing I let it rise for about four hours instead of just two.  This afternoon I pulled out some dough and let it rise in the pan as directed, for an hour and forty-five minutes.  That loaf came out gummy and even a little underdone.  The next loaf I let rise in the pan for nearly six hours.  It rose up and filled out the nonstick pan completely to the top and a little more before I baked it.  I baked it longer than 45 minutes, nearly an hour.  That loaf was certainly cooked throughout but still gummy and it stinks of yeast and has such a strong yeasty taste.


Anybody have any suggestions to salvage the remaining dough so that I don't have to make two more stinky loaves that I need to toast to make edible?


Thank you so much!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Funny that you should mention that it stinks, could you please tell us what it smells like'?  If the yeast is old and possibly stale, it can stink.  That would give off flavors to the bread.  It should smell more nutty and pleasant than oily or rancid.

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Yeast is new, just a few weeks old and has been refrigerated.  The stink is just the overwhelming yeasty smell.  The loaf smells very strongly of booze, not like the pleasant hint of sake smell a bread should have.  Probably just too much yeast for my taste.  I am using Fleischmann's but perhaps after I use up this batch I will switch.

swtgran's picture
swtgran

I did not like the yeastiness of those recipes, so I cut the amount down to a teaspoon and let them stay on the counter longer before storing in the fridge.  The flavor improved greatly.

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Your complaint is not unusual - you may want to check out this info from the ABIF website.


Also, I think there may have been an errata published some time ago which corrected errors in the yeast amount.  That should be at their website too.


Alas, I can make no suggestions which will change the taste of your over-yeasted dough.  Seasoned breadcrumbs, perhaps?


Also...welcome to TFL.

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

A lot of people complain that the ABin5 doughs are too yeasty.  You can decrease the yeast to as little as 1/4 of what is called for in the recipe, but you have to give it a lot more time to develop on the counter (up to 8 hours) after mixing and before refrigerating the dough. 


But there may be other explanations for the texture complaints you have:


1.  First, make sure you don't knead it or work the dough too much.  If you are an experienced bread baker, it's really hard to avoid the temptation to handle the dough a lot.  You need to handle it very minimally so that it doesn't deflate and become sticky and gummy.  You need a decent amount of flour to handle the wet dough, but a new baker error is to use a lot of flour and try to get the dough to incorporate it.  Both of these will lead to a heavy and denser bread. 


2.  Zoe and Jeff do not agree, but an instant read thermometer is essential.  This bread will appear fully baked (nice crust color, sounds hollow when you tap it) but still be gummy in the middle.  You must check the temperature--205 for lean doughs, 185 for enriched doughs.  It's the only way to be certain this dough is done. 


As for the dough you've already mixed up, search their website for how to use "old dough"--you can incorporate it into a new batch with a lot less yeast and salvage what you've already made so it doesn't go to waste. 

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Thank you all for your suggestions.  Janknitz, yes I will have to check my oven temperature.  I didn't add any extra flour and I am sure it rose as much as it could; it more than doubled in size, nearly coming to the top of the 5 Qt container.  So is it likely that the bread not reaching 205 is the reason it came out heavy? 


Actually, my first instincts were just to add more flour, but I'm glad I didn't!  I will definitely incorporate the old batch into a new batch with less yeast.  How to go about this?  I have done as much research as I could so as to not make up too much of your time.  I have read that I can add as much as of the old dough so that is makes up as much as 20% of the entire volume of the mixed dough.  I should mix the old dough into the water called for the new dough recipe and then mix that into the new dry ingredients.  Is it as simple as that?  If I used 1.5 T yeast in the old batch, how much should I use in the new batch?  Or rather, what amount is too little?  Can I still leave this mixed batch out for a considerable amount of time, even with the old dough in it?

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

I believe that Zoe suggests using a hand blender to mix the old dough into the water.  Or you can just pour the water over this old dough and leave it to sit for 30 minutes or an hour.  It will mix in easily after a rest.    This is much like feeding a sourdough starter--you're feeding the yeasty beasties, so they should be reinvigorated with the new flour and water, and should have plenty of oomph to raise your new dough.


I agree that you can try not adding any more yeast and see what happens.  If you have 2 lbs of dough left, you don't want to make 10 lbs, so why don't you pull off a hunk and freeze the rest.  Then you can experiment by adding progressively bigger amounts of yeast to the same amount of old dough, plus flour and water, and see what you get--Science!

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Thank you all for your suggestions.  Janknitz, yes I will have to check my oven temperature.  I didn't add any extra flour and I am sure it rose as much as it could; it more than doubled in size, nearly coming to the top of the 5 Qt container.  So is it likely that the bread not reaching 205 is the reason it came out heavy? 


Actually, my first instincts were just to add more flour, but I'm glad I didn't!  I will definitely incorporate the old batch into a new batch with less yeast.  How to go about this?  I have done as much research as I could so as to not make up too much of your time.  I have read that I can add as much as of the old dough so that is makes up as much as 20% of the entire volume of the mixed dough.  I should mix the old dough into the water called for the new dough recipe and then mix that into the new dry ingredients.  Is it as simple as that?  If I used 1.5 T yeast in the old batch, how much should I use in the new batch?  Or rather, what amount is too little?  Can I still leave this mixed batch out for a considerable amount of time, even with the old dough in it?

Chuck's picture
Chuck

Quote:
bread not reaching 205

Another thread here suggests although 205F is a reasonable guide, it can be a bit on the low side for lean doughs (just flour, water, salt, yeast). Not everybody likes it this way. If the crumb seems "too gummy" for you, try for something like 208F.


Quote:
I can add as much as of the old dough so that is makes up as much as 20% of the entire volume of the mixed dough

That rule of thumb is for "old dough" (pate fermentee). As someone else mentioned, you'll probably do better to treat your previous dough as "biga", which is typically a little less than the amount of new dough, but I agree you can "push it" a little to use up all your old dough.


Quote:
I should mix the old dough into the water called for the new dough recipe and then mix that into the new dry ingredients. Is it as simple as that?

Yep, that's what I'd try (caveat: I haven't actually done it). Mixing in old dough can be pretty problematic because it has such a strong tendency to clump together to itself. By essentially dissolving the old dough in the new water, you get something that will mix.


Put all the new water in a big bowl, add all the old dough (broken up into pieces, not just one big lump), and keep stirring until it all dissolves. You'll get a sort of white "soup". Now make your new recipe just like it says, except whenever it calls for water, use that amount of your soupy stuff instead.




Remember what you're mixing up will be a "huge" amount. Be sure you have big enough containers and enough refrigerator space before you start. (You may decide using the old dough just isn't "worth it", throw it out, and chalk up the time and expense to a learning experience:-)

yozzause's picture
yozzause

 I dont know how much of the old batch you have to get rid of but do a little experimentation here, You didnt like the yeastiness of the original so i suggest not adding any  yeast if you are using 20% old dough there will be sufficient yeast in that to carry the new dough the only thing is that there will be no certaintity on the speed of the fermentation. However if you take notes and it works out for you then you will have something to go on.


Really you are going to be using the old dough as a Biga.


The only drawback that i can see is if you didnt like it that much the first time around and your new bread has 20% of it in it you have the potential to have decreased the 2nd loaf quality by 20%. Hey but a small trial will add to both yours an our knowledge if you share it with us. Do 2 small mixes one with old dough another with reduced yeast but as per previous and compare..


regards Yozza 

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

I will do that.  Can I leave the dough mixed with the old out for up to 8 hours like new dough?  It won't go bad because it's already been sitting out?

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

PS- Our family motto is "Waste not, want not."  Hope this will be a "waste not" experience instead of a "waste more," haha!

who_me's picture
who_me

Just like you, the first batch I made tasted too yeasty.  For a half batch of dough, I barely use 1.5 tsp of yeast. This translates to 1 tbsp per full batch and as the authors say on the website, you could use 1/4 or 1/2 of the amount called for, just increase the first rise time.


Are you making a sandwich loaf in a pan or just the lean dough in a loaf pan?  I have found that 1) baking to 205F helps and 2) so does a longer resting time.


For my ABin5, I use the soft sandwich bread recipe which includes a little sugar and oil.  I rest a 2lb loaf for 2 hours after shaping and bake it at 375F for approx 50-60 mins.  When I did not let it rest so long and raise the bake temp from 350 to 375, the texture was more gummy.  I read about these changes on the ABin5 website.


http://www.artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=904


I am also careful to wait until it completely cools before cutting into it.  I found making half batches easier as I learned how to make bread this way.


The instructions posted above for how to incorporate old dough into new dough works well.


Best of luck to you.

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Can't find the recipe. Is it only in the book?

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

Thank you all for sharing your genius.  I will pull off some and freeze the rest of the dough.  I will make two new loaves this weekend using these ideas.  Keep those ideas coming, I'm going to use up the rest of this dough eventually.  I will take pictures to document these endeavors.  I am more excited about than I would be about starting a new batch from scratch.  You guys are great- the most welcoming online community I've ever found.  You all totally inspire me!

Chuck's picture
Chuck

For some more ideas on curing underdone AB5D loaves, see this note on the AB5D website.

ww's picture
ww

i dont know the AB method at all but it sounds like you've over-proofed and over-fermented your doughs if you've left them out for longer than you should have. Thus the strong yeasty smell.  Mind that instructions are only a guide - depends on the temp of your kitchen too.


i'm not sure if you mean you want to save your dough that's already over-fermented or a new batch. If it's over-proofed dough that you've simply refrigerated, then i don't think you can do anything.


To not waste your overly yeasty dough, perhaps you can just bake them (maybe as a flatter loaf) then dry it out to make croutons or bread crumbs (let bread dry out, put it through the food processor to get crumbs or chop it up for croutons, season heavily with olive oil and herbs - all the better to 'mask' the yeast factor and use for soups, gratins, etc etc). Just an idea

MamaMochiko's picture
MamaMochiko

I originally made two batches of the over-yeasty dough (lesson learned: when trying a new recipe, never go big!)  I took pictures of the first loaf, which I turned into rum raisin banana pudding.  The second loaf went straight to the freezer for later use in French Toast or more banana pudding. 




With the remaining four pounds of bad dough, I dissolved a measly two ounces in 2 cups of 100 degree water and added half of the dry ingreidents for the master recipe calls for.  I let it rise for 2 hours (it did not double but rose some and never collapsed), then back to the fridge overnight.  I shaped it and let it rise for 1 hour 45 minutes covered in the pan where it rose a little more.  I was too impatient to wait til I could get to the store and get an oven thermometer, so I set the oven to 375.  I pre-heated the oven for about 15 minutes (it was already going since I had just done some banana bread).  I decided not to add water in the broiler pan since I was cooking the bread at a higher temp and most likely for a longer time and I didn't want the crust too crispy.


I baked it at 375 for 50 minutes.  And for another 15 minutes.  And another 15 minutes.  And another 10.  By that time the loaf had finally reached an inner temp of 205 and I was so done!  I wanted to cook it longer til it reached closer to 208 but I didn't want to risk burning the crust.


I waited and let it cool.  Fortunately it cooled before my boyfriend went to work because a chef himself he was dying to taste it.  It tastes like bread!  LOL. Perhaps a bit tough on the outside for my taste and I would prefer a less dense inside.



What do you guys think?  What are your suggestions?  How long can I freeze the bad dough so I can keep using it as a starter?