The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Rye Stories

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Rye Stories

Rye Stories: Daisy_A

I love rye bread and I'm not alone. When faced with a continental buffet my dh will make a bee line for the pumpernickel. As far as rye in mixed grain breads go I always feel there's room for a little more. So it's odd that it's taken me so long to try a 100% rye. I've been working my way towards it but had heard rumours that it might be troublesome. I was worried that it might implode or explode, either crack all over like 'a wedding cake left out in the rain' (as the poet W.H. Auden so famously described his own face), or fall in on itself like the ground over a hidden stream. 

Over the last few weeks, however, I have tried 3 100% rye formulae, the Borodinsky and seeded ryes from Andrew Whitley's Bread Matters and Mini Oven's favourite 100% rye (Bread Matters pp. 168-171, pp. 167-168; Mini Oven here). In the end, given that my rye starter is much more stable and strong than my wheat starters, these ryes have probably given me less trouble than the average sourdough. 

I did not adapt the formulae substantially so what follows are a few notes on method and taste. Bakers wanting to look into the Melmerby Borodinsky outside of Whitley's text might follow up on Andy/ananda's post here about the different Village Bakery versions, including an 85% rye. Andy's post includes a formula. There is a great discussion of Mini's formula on her original thread and in other TFL posts. 

The first 100% rye I baked was the Borodinsky from Bread Matters. When I made this I was running down my stock of Dove's Farm rye to try Bacheldre Mill but could not immediately source the latter. I had to make multiple calculations in order to keep my stock rye going and put together the formula without running out of flour and was congratulating myself on stretching my pea brain maths to the limit when I blanked out and went over on the water. Well that taught me to bake at the end of a long day…

The loaf came out a lovely golden brown but I thought I would have to spend the night on the couch waiting for it to bake out. After cooling the top sagged ever so slightly, like a cotton clothesline, due to the slight overhydration,  but the taste was superb. 

The second Borodinsky was made to share at an art and bread tasting event. Happily every crumb was eaten but I was so preoccupied with getting it to the venue without a hiccup that I forgot to take shots of it. So the elegant still life below is courtesy of event photographer Julian Hughes - thanks Julian.

© Julian Hughes, 2010

The second time I made this bread and after reading up on ways to manage rye, I added 40g extra water and 40g extra rye to the sour after 12 hours.  This was in part to add sweetness to the final bread and in part to allow the high hydration (1.6.3.), sour to mature for another 12 hours without becoming too acidic.

After the first Borodinsky I was able to swap to Bacheldre Mill. This is a much stronger flour than the Dove's Farm and I've found it suits the high hydration of Whitley's formula well. Crust and crumb have baked out well in all loaves made with the Mill flour. I find the crust tends to have a grainy finish due to the high bran content but I like that look, particularly as the crust also tends to be very golden. The flour has a beautiful, nutty flavour.

The next bread I attempted was the seeded rye from Bread Matters. I did make some adjustments to this.  I used 100% sunflower seeds instead of sunflower and pumpkin. This was largely due to availability. I hope to be able to dry seeds from the autumn squashes to use in bread but had none at hand when I made this. Having struggled to keep the coriander seeds on the Borodinsky rye while turning it upside down regularly to check internal temperature I also felt creating a sunflower seed coating for the seeded rye, as Whitley suggests, was beyond my skills. I omitted it but think it would actually be a nice touch. 

I also added a teaspoon of organic blackstrap molasses because I had just bought some at the whole food coop and wanted to play with it. I though this might soften the edge of quite a sour rye but given the sour notes of blackstrap itself it probably made it taste even sourer!  I have used malt syrup or honey since.

The second time I made this bread I also included a second build of 80g of flour to the sour after 12 hours to allow it to go the full 24 hours without becoming too acidic. I then reduced the flour in the final batter by the corresponding amount. The flavour was amazing, similar to that of an aged Manchego cheese. 

My slightly adapted version of Andrew's formula was:

Rye sour

160g of rye sour at 1.6.3 (fermented 12 hours then 80g more flour added)

Final batter

All rye sour   240g

Rye flour     160g

Sea salt           5g

Molasses          5g

Sunflower seeds 100g

Water 140g

Total 650g


Mini Oven's favourite rye. What can I say? It is a super-delicious formula. When I first joined TFL I used to gaze on Mini's post in wonderment. Even though Mini describes the process extremely clearly I couldn't imagine myself attempting the bread. Having and reread read posts on rye from Mini and other TFLers, including Andy, Hans Joakim, Karin, Nico, Khalid and Larry, among others, I finally felt I could attempt it and it went fine! Thanks all for your postings - they were very helpful! Sorry if I've missed any other 'ryesperts' - you were helpful as well!

I started with a small loaf, working the formula up from 60g of starter and added 2 tablespoons (5g) of mixed seeds, with an emphasis on caraway. Based on Mini's (1:3.5:4.16), formula this gave me a nice round 210g cold water, 250g flour to the 60g starter, for a final loaf of around 570g. I also added altus for the first time in any recipe - 20g of mixed grain sourdough with I dessert spoon of warm water and I tsp of honey. I mashed this into a paste in a pestle and mortar then folded it into the final batter. This formula yielded a loaf that was beautifully golden, with a gorgeous aroma, which was sweeter than those from Bread Matters. I will definitely do a larger loaf next time. We managed to wait 24 hours to try it but it was gone in just over a day! Thanks Mini, it was gorgeous! 

 

© Daisy_A 2010 I love to share bread stories and read other bakers' posts about bread. If you republish this page for 'fair use' please acknowledge authorship and provide a link to the original URL. Please note, however, I do not support the unauthorized and unattributed publishing of my text and images on for-profit websites..

Comments

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Daisy_A


Congradulations  on the Ryes and what a great post, all i need now is to source some rye flour and give it a go, i may have to cheat and beg some from a friends bakery as it isn't regularly available at the shops.


The art and bread tasting event sounds interesting too, can you tell us any more about that?


kind regards Yozzause ( i wonder if Julian HUGHES is a relative)

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Yozza,


Good to hear from you! Thanks for your encouraging comments. 


Do go and chase your friend for some rye - I think you'll enjoy it. 


The art and bread tasting event was a Bread Fair to draw together parts of Rebecca Beinart's Exponential Growth project. Rebecca is interested in sustainability and often works with foraged foods and foods that have a strong symbolic value but also remain part of people's everyday lives, like salt, wine, bread. There is more about Rebecca and her sister Katy's work plus the formula for the white tin project loaf on this link.For this project Rebecca handed out a sourdough culture started in Loughborough, UK to mostly new bakers, asked them to bake with it and then pass it on. She held bread making workshops and also charted the distance that the starter travelled - it did make it overseas, including America (think it was Dallas). Over 100 bakers have taken the culture to date.


These 'culture caretakers' were invited to bring breads to share at the Bread Fair at Loughborough Town Hall. It was also open to the public to come and taste bread and have some fruit wine, made by Rebecca and her housemate. It was market day so we did actually get a good crowd, which was great. Rebecca gave a short talk about the project. Local biodynamic farmer Joe Bradley from Hungary Lane Farm, who supplies rye to Little Salkeld was also there. Bakers had brought tin loaves, mostly the white tin project loaf.  It was good to see this baked up by so may different bakers. There were also some rye tin loaves at the event, which is where the Borodinsky came in. Erin (Cake Wench) from the Dan Lepard forum baked a delicious rye as did Russian postgrad. Ksenija, who had arrived in Loughborough via America to research sustainable architecture for schools. She made a formula from the Breadtopia site. Everyone sampled the bread and some the wine and had a good chat. Some more people took starters. It was a top day out, really. 


As said, Julian took the photographs. He was a great chap. He was also a home baker and had recently taken a group of schoolchildren to the local, independent Green's Mill and small education centre in Sneinton, Nottinghamshire, the only other mill to grind Joe's rye. He could be related Yozza, couldn't he,  if the Hughes are the type of family that come from just one original source?


Rebecca's project was part of Radar and Loughborough University's Green season, which included a talk on bread (which I missed sadly), by Nikolaus Geyrhalter, author of Unser Täglich Brot [Our Daily Bread] (2005). Apparently he is critical of industrial bread production - anyone at TFL heard of him?


It's heartening because there is quite a lot of countercultural art around food in the Midlands, UK area, which aims to be open to the public. As for their version of sustainable art - think a small, portable cinema for short films, powered by a bicycle. Needs a fit cyclist, because if they run out of steam the film stops! No, I'm jesting. They charge up a dynamo so they can take breaks;-)


Hope you are still recovering well and enjoying being back baking.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

I too made and loved Andrew Whitley's Borodinsky, now I can't wait to try mini's favorite rye formula.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi txfarmer,


Many thanks for your encouraging message. It means a lot coming from you as your breads and blog are always so beautiful!


I'm glad you liked the Borodinsky. Do try Mini's formula - it is delicious!


Best wishes, Daisy_A

DavidR's picture
DavidR

Those really are excellent looking breads!


I was interestd in your comment on the Bacheldre Mill flour. I've had good sucess with the Bread recipes for up to 50% rye, but so far have preferred the Dove's Farm Rye as it seems to produce a lighter loaf. I've never tried 100% rye (the Hamelman recipes are intimidating); would you say that there's no advantage to the Dove's Farm flour there? And which 100% recipe would you suggest starting with?


David

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi David,


Many thanks for your encouraging comments!


As far as flours go I am sure there are advantages to using a lighter whole grain flour. As you say it can produce a lighter loaf overall. Also the Bread Matters formulae really test the yeasts in the sour. I go the whole time (but with 2 builds of the rye sour as noted), and that is a 24 hour prefement and a 5 hour proof. That is a lot of time in which the rye yeasts could be knocked back by the overdevelopment of enzymes or acids. Given that bran itself can tend to damp down yeast activity, there is a case to be made for using a whole grain with less bran. My own taste preference is for strong flavours, so as long as I can strengthen my rye during the process and still get aeration with the Bacheldre Mill l like to use it for flavour. However other bakers will differ and perhaps prefer something less sour.


The one thing I have noted, though, is that with the high hydration Bread Matters Borodinsky and Seeded Rye (which as Andy notes below differ in hydration from breads made at different times in the VB history), I found the Bacheldre Mill easier to hydrate. Nevertheless, as noted to Zdenka, I use Waitrose Own organic rye (which is more similar to Dove's Farm), in the initial sour for the Borodinsky. This means in effect that the higher ash flour is cut with one with a lower ash content.


It might be interesting to have some Bacheldre Mill to cut with the Dove's? I haven't tried any Hamelman rye formulae with Bacheldre Mill yet, but Zeb of Zeb Bakes (also a TFL member),has and posts about it here


http://zebbakes.wordpress.com/2010/07/29/80-rye-bread-with-a-rye-flour-soaker/


Interestingly she also finds the Bacheldre Mill has a coarser grind than her normal rye flour.


Which 100% recipe to start with? I would recommend Mini's. Mini has a lot of experience with rye and she has obviously thought hard about this formula. It is beautifully balanced and easy to scale up and down. I've only had a few bread formulae sail out beautifully the first time - Mini's was one of them. It is a classic. It produces s a delicious bread - very complex and aromatic. However with a maximum working time of around 8 hours it does not put as much strain on the yeast cultures as the Bread Matters formulae. 


I think you would enjoy 100% rye. Do let us know if you try it. 


With kind regards, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy, all your breads came out with the right crumb. Evidently you have a touch for rye.


Even the sunflower seeds are evenly distributed. You really waited too long to try a 100% rye. Very nice breads!

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Nico,


Many thanks for your comments - much appreciated!


I was glad about the crumb as it's a long wait to see if it's right.


I tried really hard with the sunflower seeds as I knew they would be under scrutiny ;-)


I only started baking with rye leavens this summer, though, and it did help to wait and take in all those rye conversations between you and Andy and others, just to let myself know what I was in for when I went for the higher ryes :-). Thanks for sharing those.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

varda's picture
varda

Well I am still too scared, but this post is part of the process where I'll eventually follow you to 100%.   Beautiful!   -Varda

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Varda,


Thanks for the message and your kind comments! 


I understand where you are coming from. I opened Bread Matters, looked at the quite long chart for 'Troubleshooting 100 per cent rye breads' and promptly closed it again! It's actually really useful to have that reference point but I ended up feeling too nervous to start. It was following posts on TFL that helped me, so if this has post has been one step on your journey I'd be really happy.


I was approaching 100% rye through stepping up the rye in mixed grain loaves - like going up a diving board steps a bit at a time before diving in! Like Mini says, though, once you're in the swimming pool it's actually a lot easier.  One thing I found simpler was that from front to back, culture to preferment to final dough you are only thinking about the reactions of one grain, rather than two or several. From my limited experience I found balancing the hydration of the final dough was key. If that was successful then shaping and baking went much better. 


I'm sure you'll enjoy it - do let us know how it goes!


Very best wishes, Daisy_A


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm looking forward to baking my first 100% rye bread.


David

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi David,


Many thanks indeed for your message - it is much appreciated!


I have really enjoyed reading about your most recent bakes and am sure that you will enjoy the 100% rye!


Kind regards, Daisy_A

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

I think you have just became another rye expert Daisy_A!


Please could mention what rye flours you used for Borodinsky and Mini´s favourite rye? Whole rye, or medium, or other?


Thanks!


Zdenka

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Zdenka,

Many thanks for your message and your encouragement!

I need to say more about the flours - thanks for the nudge! I normally write a lot about flour in my own adapted formulae but am still reflecting on the way I approached the Bread Matters formulae. It calls up some questions about UK rye flour classifications, as well. Here goes - I'll try my best! Numbers for the Borodinsky are at the bottom of the post.

It would be so good to have access to the range of rye flours that there are in the German classification system. Here we have dark (whole grain), medium and light rye. However the latter two are rare in the shops. I would normally have to get these over the Internet. 

In Bread Matters Andrew Whitley suggests using either light or dark rye. I chose to use dark rye for both flavour and availability. As Andy notes, below, one VB formula used light rye and 85% hydration. However, with the 1.6.3. production sour I estimate the Borodinsky in the book to be nearer 94%. For me, this hydration worked better with the Bacheldre Mill. I liked the Dove's Farm but me for me it was easier for it to become over-hydrated. I also let the Bacheldre Mill rest 30 minutes after mixing before shaping and it absorbed more water in that time.

I baked Mini's rye with the Bacheldre Mill. The only other flour was 30g of Waitrose Own organic rye in my regular rye starter culture. 

However, to complicate things I generally keep my basic sour going with Waitrose Own organic rye. One change from this is the second builds of the sour for the Borodinsky and Seeded Rye, for which I use Bacheldre Mill. 

The interesting thing is that in the UK system, as I understand it currently, all of these flours (Bacheldre Mill, Dove's Farm and Waitrose Own), fall into the same main category - whole grain, stoneground, organic ryes. However, in practice, I've found a significant difference in their consistency and the way they handle during baking.

I'm sure we've had this debate elsewhere on the boards, but in the UK flours are not classified publicly by ash content and information on ash content is not released normally to home bakers. However, even with the naked eye I can see that the Bacheldre Mill has a higher ash content. Below are Bacheldre Mill (top) and Waitrose Own (bottom). Both are whole grain but I hope you can see on the photographs that the Bacheldre Mill is more golden, has a slightly coarser grind and far more visible bran. It also has a beautiful aroma and I fell in love with the way it handled which is why I use it as the main flour in the formulae! For me, Dove's Farm is closer to Waitrose Own. I find that Waitrose Own also tends to be less absorbent than the Bacheldre Mill. 

   

If these flours were in a system classified by ash, with narrower bands, I'm not sure they would be in the same band. This has significance for my baking of the Borodinsky as approximately 105g of the original production sourdough (out of 345g total flour), was the Waitrose Own. In your classification system this might equate to around 32% of the total rye being a lower ash flour, although I couldn't say how much lower (phew..).

To make it simpler the flours I used in the Borodinksy formula go like this:

Production sourdough at 1.6.3 

27g rye starter culture@100 (13.5 Waitrose Own; 13.5 water)

162g water

81g Waitrose Own

Second build

40g Bacheldre Mill

40g water

Final batter

All sour from two builds = 350

200g Bacheldre Mill (down from 240 due to second build)

5g Sea salt

5g Coarsely ground coriander seeds

20g Molasses

15g Barley malt extract

50g Water at 35C (down from 90 due to second build)

Any UK bakers interested in Bacheldre Mill you can get it in some if not all Waitrose stores as well as some farm shops. Thanks for that tip Andy!

Phew - long answer but it touched on something I need to think through. I think that Hans Joakim says something similar, that even flours in the same classification can behave very differently. I'm sure you have some beautiful flours to hand where you are.

Wishing you good baking Zdenka!   Best wishes, Daisy_A

 

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

Thanks for your detailed explanation, Daisy_A


I really appreciate you posting the photos of rye flours you used. It gives a better idea as flours differ so much from one country to another.


I have made mini´s fantastic formula maybe ten times so far, and it always turned great. I use rye T930 and the 86% hydration seems fine. I wonder what the hydration should be if I use whole rye T1700...?


I have not tried Borodinsky yet, but I certainly will very soon. I am just thinking what the dough should look like - as you mentioned every rye flour may behave differently it may need to ajust  the hydration.


I am looking forward to your next rye experience!


zdenka

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

I worried I'd gone overboard but then thought it's probably best to be specific as flours and flour categories can differ so much from country to country. 


Mini's formula's great, isn't it? Interesting to know that it also goes well with medium rye. I used the darker whole rye above (Bacheldre Mill), and it went just fine also with the same hydration. I have to say, however, that my oven is quite weak so that may also have helped to keep in the moisture.


As to the Borodinsky, I baked it first with Dove's Farm, which I suspect is closer to medium grind that the Bacheldre Mill, and it was good also. It was easier to overhydrate it but then it was easier to get a smoother 'skin' with the Dove's Farm. 


Whitley recommends forming the rye dough for the Borodinsky with wet hands and a flexible scraper into a rectangular 'butter pat' shape, slightly smaller than the tin, which can then be dropped into the tin. It is very much like working clay at this point. I have to say this went a lot better if I let the dough sit for around 30 mins. So - it has to be a batter but a batter that you can pick up and form without it running. Dough should reach half way up the tin at the start of proofing.


I liked the loaf baked with the 'medium' rye also but I have to say if I were using the lighter of the two whole grains again or with light rye, I would probably try something nearer Andy's formula, with an 85% hydration.


Thanks for your comment about more baking.  I do hope to try some more rye formula as well as revisiting favourites. I am finding that I am drawn to the darker, flatter and stronger tasting ryes - maybe pumpernickel or other dark breads beckon? (Will have to think about that, though, knowing how many pumpernickel fans there are on the board!)


The other thing that occurred to me is that in rescuing my rye sour I had effectively made 2 builds. Maybe I could try 3? I know Karin posted very favourably about a Detmolder adaptation and I looked at Hamelman's 3 build. However both called for close temperature control, which was a bit daunting. Am I right in thinking that you wrote that traditional Czech breads were 3 build? Might be a step too far for me now but Im interested in it. Will definitely do Mini's again, though - good to hear you have made it so many times!


Wishing you happy baking!


Best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy

Great looking breads! Glad you've decided to enter the world of 100% ryes. It's interesting how things gain a reputation as 'troublesome', often creating unnecessary fear which itself can lead to trouble! No sign of that here though.

Just a quick note to say that Bacheldre flours are also available on Amazon, including in bulk (4 x 1.5kg packs, & 16kg & 25kg sacks).

Best regards

Geraint

(looking forward to meeting you in Feb!)

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,

Many thanks for your kind message!

Yes, I really have enjoyed baking with rye and we both like the flavour of it as well, which is good.

Thanks for the information about Bacheldre Mill on Amazon. That could be a good route.

I look forward also to meeting in February! Wishing you good baking until then,

With best wishes, Daisy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Your breads and pictures are gorgeous!  I'm honored to be mentioned in such company.  Thanks.  And so glad you've gone all the way in discovering rye.  Like you wrote, it really isn't so complicated.  It is much like swimming, once you've done it, you just keep wanting to jump back into the water... or dough.    Beautiful write up!


Mini

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Mini,


Many thanks for your message and encouragement - it is much appreciated! I have to say though I was working with some fine formulae. Many thanks indeed for sharing your favourite 100% rye - it produced such a beautiful loaf. Can't wait to jump back in again, as you say!


Very best wishes, Daisy_A

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Beautiful Writup, Daisy! Iam no Expert in Rye, far from being one. Those are some beautiful looking Ryes!! YUM! one should dash in and bake bold Ryes, or will never learn.


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Khalid,


Many thanks for your comments - these are much appreciated!


I am sure you are right - bold baking is the order of the day, with all whole grains :-)


Best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,


There is such a lovely selection here, and your post covers so much ground.


Borodinsky: some people are asking you about rye flours, so maybe a bit of clarification on the VB Borodinsky.   We always used all light rye in the commercial formula for the final dough, although I note Andrew Whitley allows choice in his Breadmatters formula.   Actually it is quite a significant choice to be making.   You rightly note that Bacheldre Mill Dark Rye flour is very thirsty.   So the 85% hydration is ideal.   But with the addition of both Molasses and Barley Malt Syrup, I'm not sure we would have achieved this level of hydration when working with the Shipton Light Rye!


I love the results, anyway: Nico is quite right.   Regards the coriander topping, we used a "fine cut" grind, and sprinkled on top of loaves lightly misted with water.   Care needed, otherwise the tops of the baked loaves become welded in the tin!


The seeded loaf you made was clearly considerably wetter than the loaves I baked on the Breadmatters course with Andrew.   That is no bad thing, as these loaves did have a tendency to be slow to prove, and, thus, heavy.   So difficulty in dipping the loaf in seeds is understandable.   Many thanks for the preview shot of this loaf: a wonderful loaf, with fantastically even seed distribution across the crumb.


And, Mini's formula to finish!   Some contrast, I have no doubt!   Andrew Whitley's breads are sour; no doubt.   That loaf is so light, and just reveals a wholly different aspect to rye bread baking.


Rye breads coming up on my students' schemes of work in a few weeks time: so looking forward to that!   Thanks for this taster; great range and lovely diverse post.   Thanks for the credits, too!


All good wishes


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Dear Andy,


Many thanks indeed for your encouraging comments and detailed feedback - it is much appreciated!


Thank you for giving the background to how the Borodinsky was baked in a professional setting at the Village Bakery. I would like to try that formula. You're right that the Borodiinsky hydration in Bread Matters is higher and I found that Bacheldre Mill worked well with it. However using Waitrose Own rye in the first build of the sour did introduce a flour with a less coarse grind. Thanks for pointing me in the way of the Bacheldre Mill. I love the flavour it brings


I've gone for the max. with Andrew's formulae. Mercifully my rye starter is much stronger than my wheats and with a second build of the sour I was able to get the rye through the process without getting a flat final crumb (phew!). Man is the seeded rye tangy, though - like I say it's like a mature cheese! We love it but it would be too sour for some. 


Many thanks for your comments on the seeded rye. I was very careful with seed distribution as I knew you would be looking! As for putting seeds on the outside - well I know my limits and I quite like the aesthetics of the loaf without seeds.


Mini's loaf was beautifully complex in a different way - sweet and aromatic rather than sour and aromatic. We loved both. I also got to use altus for the first time, which was fun. 


Happy to give credit where credit is due! Thanks for all your support. Hope you and your students have a great time with the ryes. Great for them to be taught by someone with so much experience in that area. 


Very best wishes, Daisy_A

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Daisy Thanks for the reply, the event sounded like  a really good thing to have gone along to and even better to have been involved in. Sadly we don' seem to get anything like that here, probably to small a population spread out over such a large area. I have ordered Hamelman's Bread as a christmas present for myself, so all i have to do is see Nick at the bakery and obtain some rye, i'm sure he will let me have some as his rye is not anything special at this stage.


I have been threatning to spend a night with him having a bit of a play or the equivalent of a Muso's  jam session for some time now, so perhaps the time is right.  


kind regards Yozza

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Yozza,


Thanks for your message. Yes the event was good, thanks, and got a lot of new people interested in baking. I'd heard Australia was good for the arts too, though? Also, as you must remember, large population in small area has its downsides too!


Bread should be a fantastic Christmas present - enjoy it!


Enjoy the jam session too - sounds like a great idea. Not sure if this is a music jam or a baking jam or both?


Best wishes, Daisy_A

kim's picture
kim

I bake a mini loaf of your rye bread on weekend; I substitute all the water with Guinness beer and I did add extra beer in my dough because my dough was quite dry, it turned out very nicely, had very little beer taste lingering in my mouth after eating them. I’m still playing with my oven temperature, so the crust turn out a little thick and dark. May try to perfect this bread more in my future. Here is my pic(third day):


 



Thanks,


Kimmy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Kimmy,


That looks delicious! I bet it tasted lovely with the Guinness aroma.Thank you for sharing this.


Some bakers try to get that contrast crackling on the crust of rye bread - looks appealing to me!


Wishing you continued happy baking! Daisy_A


 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Hi Daisy,


I have a question of your rye sour:



Rye sour


160g of rye sour at 1.6.3 (fermented 12 hours then 80g more flour added)



I fermented the 160g rye sour for overnight twice, but both of them deflated when I woke up.  Is it okay?


I dicided to continue on the second time, but the loaf shrank a lot while baking. I added 47g water to the dough. May be it was too much water I used...



The taste was great, Daisy.  I left the rye bread outside at 50F for 12 hours before slicing. I couldn't wait for  another 12 hours.   I wanted to use cold start for this loaf, but I was baking other breads, too.  I am really silly to bake this loaf started at 238F for 20 minutes ( The oven's temperature was 180F before I put the loaf in the oven) then baked more 20 minutes at 400F.    


And, I wonder how to get the contrast on the rye bread that Kimmy made. It looks awesome. 


I will bake more rye bread until I am able to make like yours!! 


Akiko


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Akiko,


Thanks for your question! I will do my best to answer it. 


If you started at this point "Production sourdough at 1.6.3 



27g rye starter culture@100 (13.5 Waitrose Own; 13.5 water)" I am assuming you are doing the seeded rye and not the adapted Borodinsky, which is in the response to Zdenka? 


Thanks for the picture. Looking at that, thinking of my own experience and re-reading Whitley, I would say that the most likely explanation is too much water in the dough as you suggest. Glad it tasted good though!


The one time I had a small dip in the top of a loaf I had miscalculated the water when trying to make up for a shortfall of flour. Whitley is very clear that a wet dough can lead to a 'sunken crust'. If you can access it there is a really helpful checklist for troubleshooting 100% rye in Bread Matters. In the 2009 paperback it is pages 171-2.


I think, then, that rechecking the proportions of water to flour, like you suggest, would be useful for all stages. It would also be helpful to check the proportion of seeds to final dough as they help mop up the water.


I also think though, that as with wheat sourdough, half the task is learning to understand your own starter culture and flours. You are so good at this I know you will get this!


My rye sour is quite quick to develop. I couldn't take it through 24 hours with one feed, as Whitley does, without it becoming too sour to use, which is why I use the top up feed after 12 hours. Perhaps your rye sour is even stronger? What do you think about trying slightly more of the prefermented flour in the sour from the start, to give it more to feed on in the night?


The other thing is that the Bacheldre Mill flour that I use normally is a very robust, absorbent stone ground flour. (It is pictured above in the message to Zdenka). When making the seeded rye with this I get a strong final dough.


Although it starts off paste like, it holds its shape prior to being put into the tin. It is the consistency of a butter pat that is starting to be a little melted round the outside but which can still stand up in a rectangle.


I found it much harder to get this strength with a different brand of whole rye. What did help with shaping, however, was autolysing the rye for 30 minutes, even though this is not recommended normally for rye.


If you have rechecked the hydration at all stages and the final dough is still a bit wet I would try what Andrew Whitley suggests, which is add a little more flour to the final dough, until it hits the right consistency. 


Kimmy's bread looks great, doesn't it? I am wondering, following some guidance from Ron about raisin water yeast, whether the sugar in the Guinness aids the caramelization that provides the visual contrast? 


I would like to try rye with Guinness. However if I have a can of Guinness in the fridge the rye is about third on the list as a potential recipient! 


Wishing you continued happy baking,


With very best wishes, Daisy_A


 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Thank you for taking the time to explain well to me, Daisy.  I think that my rye starter ferments so fast that I have to feed it every 6 hours, otherwise, it will be deflated.


I made Rye sour like this:


18g rye starter ( 9g rye flour /a little bit of raisin yeast (1g?) + water =9g) - It was fermented in 12 hours.


108g water


54g rye flour


------------


It was fully fermented in 6 hours.. I just continued to keep it at lower temperature at 68F until next morning.  It was 20% deflated already when I woke up at 5:45am.


I added 40g rye flour / 40g water at 5:45am  it was fully fermented in 4 hours.


I made the final dough then molded it in the pullman to finl proof for 2.5hours at 76-78F.   The dough rose tripled at this time.


Next time, I will feed the rye sour in 6 hours and see what happens. I am also looking for the book to check it out at the library or so.  100% rye bread is pretty wet for me so I might try to add oat soaker in it with interest. 


I will come back here to report my result for sure! :)


Thank you for everything, Daisy!  Your formula is well caluculated that is perfect taste to me.  I love your panettone as well as lemon bread!!!


Akiko

teketeke's picture
teketeke

:) I made your Borodinsky again. I will keep trying until I get to my goal. Now, I know my rye starter and the levain that start with raisin yeast ferment fully in 6 hours.  I took autolize 2 times before I panned the dough in my pullman.  It was a good move!  I was about to bake the dough in 5 hours after mixing. Although I felt that is too long. So I baked it in 4 hours instead.   It didn't rise much, but It didn't shrink!!


 I sprinkled 50%AP/50%Rice flour:) on the top of the loaf after shaping. I don't know if I should sprinkle the flour just before baking. Anyway, it doesn't look like Kimmy's. 



I left the bread outside at 40-50F to cool off for 12 hours, then I sliced it.  I used 60g oats/60g water too.  It tasted weaken than the original. I don't know if the oats soaker is  useful to get lighter crumb.  Next time, I will use raisin yeast water instead of the water at the final dough in addition to the oat soaker. By the way, I used mini's cold start. Cold start is a especially good method for dense bread in my opinion. I will update the taste of this bread tomorrow. It might change.


Best wishes,


Akiko