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The Banana Saga 長篇故事 and Conclusion (updated 101116)

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RonRay

The Banana Saga 長篇故事 and Conclusion (updated 101116)

 


Previous Blog:  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20032/1-little-2-little-3-little-chia-rye-loaves


 


Have your ever felt that the expression "Couldn't see the forest for the trees." applied to you?
I think that this may be a case where it really applied to me <Blush>


When I first read Shiao-Ping's blog on making a sourdough banana bread - Banana Pain au Levain (see link)
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14432/banana-pain-au-levain
I thought what a great gift such loaves would make for some of my friends. It certain was different from the usual gift. But, by the time I had finished the article, I found I was a bit concerned over two things that the author had experienced; first the hydration surprises she had encountered, and secondly, what she said about the slowness of the rising:
"dough appeared very sluggish.  It was almost as if my starter was finding it tough adjusting to bananas, "


Well, I went off and pursued other interests. However, I found my thoughts kept coming back to bananas, and to those two points that Shiao-Ping had raised. Checking on Google quickly revealed that the amount of water in bananas was closer to 75% than the 65% which she had initially assumed - base upon pumpkin percentages. Returning to the original blog, I found two others had already reported somewhat similar findings. Well, good. Most likely that cleared up the hydration issues, but what about my second issue - the slow rise?


Did the wee yeasty beasties really have problems with the addition of bananas in their diet? The more I consider this, the more interesting that question became for me. If you think I get interested in odd subjects, that's okay, others have mentioned that before.


I have spent a great amount of time studying my sourdough cultures and I have a very well establish baseline data set on my primary White Levain, which data I often use for comparisons. Suppose I take seed from that levain and build a variant levain, a Banana Flour Sour, at the same test hydration level that I used in establishing my baseline reference plots. Yes, I decided that was a clean way to get an initial handle on this slow rising point.


A Comparison


So, I took a seed from my primary White Levain (WL) and did a build/refresh containing as much banana as could be used while still maintaining the 100%HL . Maintaining that hydration level was necessary to match the WL reference data. The table below provides details.



     Table 1. Compositional breakdown of the 200 gram batches used on Day 0 through Day 8 of Banana Flour Sour at 100%HL testing



As soon as the refresh was mixed, the 200g test batch was place within my homemade temperature controlled chamber. The TC was set to maintain 80ºF (26.6ºC) +- about 1ºF. The level of the top edge of the levain was then recorded, and for every 15 minutes thereafter until the peak of the rise had been reached/passed, ending the Growth Phase.



      Figure 1. Comparing Average Rise of my Reference White Levain with the same WL Seed and a 67% Banana Puree + 33% AP Flour Refresh.


Certainly, at first reading of the data, Shiao-Ping's observation that "dough appeared very sluggish" was validated in the rise-time difference between the reference Lag and Growth Phases and those of the test Banana Flour Sour (BFS) culture.


One could argue that a good portion of the BFS Lag Phase could be explained by a difference between the average starting temperatures of the two cultures at test start, and I fully agree. However, that would not explain the difference in the Growth Phase slopes.


The temperature difference, just mentioned, resulted as follows. Both the WL reference and the BFS started from seed stock consisting of 200g of culture, which had undergone refreshment 24 hours prior, had been monitored through rise until the peak (Stationary Phase) had been reached, and then been returned to the refrigeration. The difference occurs in the refreshment temperatures. The WL was fed room temperature AP Flour and room temperature water, whereas, the BFS was feed 33% room temperature AP Flour (APF), plus refrigeration temperature banana puree (B) for the remaining 67% of its refreshment. There is no question that this difference would result is a longer Lag Phase for the BFS build. Hindsight is usually 20-20. But, this was not intended as a NASA grant application, and sliding the BFS curve to the left 30 or 45 minutes would affect the elimination of the "sluggish" nature of the rise slope.


A Bit of Back-slopping


Alright, there appeared to be less than euphoria on the part of the culture's beasties to feed on fruit - banana - rather than grain - wheat flour. Now, was this just a "fact-of-life", or could the culture's behavior shift if it were played with. To me, it seemed that the final height of the Growth Phase indicated that the banana was being used as material to created the CO2 desired, just at a slower rate. I have read the sugar, like salt, slows the growth rate. Certainly there was a lot more sugar in the new refreshment than the old.


If I simply repeated taking 100g of WL seed stock and adding the same 33% APF and 67% B (banana = B) as the refreshment, reasonably, I could expect pretty much the same curve, and that wasn't very informative. Whereas, back-slopping introduced two opposing factors. First, by using a portion of the previous build to act as the seed for the next build I could expect a lowering in the vigor of the BFS culture if B wasn't a viable food, and alternatively, I could expect an adaptation to the use of the B as a major food source if some of the beasties could handle it better than others - sort of a survival of the banana eaters. If B was really not a food for all the beasties, then the BFS culture should go downhill even faster, since, for the next several refreshments, the total % of B in each build would be increasing - Day 0 had a seed that was a pure water/APF composition, to which the 33% APF and 67% B was fed. Day 1 would have a seed that was a 100g of the residual of Day 0, to which the 33% APF and 67% B would serve as its refresh. So, each day would shift to a slightly higher % of B, until it peaked at a level 67% B total.


It looked as if the BFS culture had to go downhill if B was a poor food source for the beasties, and, on the other hand if it were a population mix, then I should see preferential growth of the B-eaters and resulting improvement in the rise slopes of the tests. Or at least, that was how it seemed to me.



                        Figure 2. The Rise Plots for Day 0 and 8 Days of Back-slopping with a Banana Flour Sourdough Culture.


Now, if one takes the starting temperature handicap that was mention earlier into account, it would appear that the BFS Day 7 and 8 are essentially equal to the reference WL data. I thought that this made it reasonable to think of the culture as now being happy to fed on either and both flour &or banana. In fact, after nine days of taking readings every 15 minutes, I was very eager to do a bread baking test, although, the addition of the BFS "disposable" daily 100g of culture, mix in with some a couple of white levains and a rye made for interesting and great sourdough waffles, and let me note that the wee yeasty beasties did not get all of the banana sugars. There was a lot of B-sugar that went into my waffles, as well (º0º)


The Banana Flour Sour Bake


In my usual fashion, I made one batch of dough, 1285g and split it into three, 428g parts. It took me time to bake the 3 loaves, just over a period of a week, in fact. The first and third loaves were done in a Dutch oven, with only their internal moisture for the steam. The second loaf was with steam and on parchment paper on the oven stones, but the temperatures match those given below for the DO loaves.


The two done in Dutch oven had preheated DO to near 500ºF (260ºC) and dropped to 410ºF (210ºC) as soon as the loaf was in the DO. After 20 minutes, the lid was removed, loaf turned out and replaced in the oven directly on the stones. The temperature was set down to 350ºF (177ºC) for 10 minutes and then turned off totally, while the door was cracked about ¼ inch (6mm) and the loaf left in for 10 addition minutes. The instant internal temperatures were ~ 207ºF (97ºC).



                 Table 2. Formula for Banana Flour Sour 3 Loaf Bakes Total of Banana 9% [ 6% water, 3% solids ]


The White Levain, BFS Levain and water were combined. Then the 2 flours mixed in and covered for 20 minutes. Total turned out into large bowl where the salt was added and worked in with 30 S&F followed with 30 minutes rest and another 2 sets of 30 S&F. At that point it was a bit over 2 hours and the dough was divided into 3 parts of 428g each in their individual 1L/1Qt oiled and covered plastic containers and placed in fridge. One loaf was used the next morning. Shaped and given 5 hours rise time and baked in a DO. Treatment of the third loaf was about the same 6 days later. The other loaf was made 3 days later, but shaped and formed in cloth-lined, clay loaf form.



                                                           First Dutch Oven Boule from WL+BFS Levains.



                                                             First Dutch Oven Boule's Crumb.



                                                            Second Boule - Steam & Stone from WL+BFS Levains.



                                                           Second Boule's Crumb



                                              Third Loaf, A Dutch Oven Boule - A Small Amount of Chia on Top.



                                Third Loaf's Crumb.


Yes, But.....


Baking each of the loaves went well. The crumb was fine, crusts great. The taste fine, with a slightly different flavor. Ah, but I would really be stretching the facts to say that I could taste anything that I would consider a banana flavor ! Well, there was only about 9% banana total in the loaves, and 6% of that was water. I guessed I'd just expected to much after eating those waffles with their great banana flavor, and that flavor coming only from the discards of the levain builds, and also being mix with a lot of other sourdough discards in the same batter.


The way I figured it, Shiao-Ping's Banana-Pain-au-Levain had about 38% banana in it. So, did I really expect 9% to overpower my little loaves?


Alright, how could I really load in the banana and still use my new found banana loving culture. If I added more banana, the hydration level (HL) was going to have to go above 100%HL, and a total banana based levain would have 25% solids (let that equal "flour") and the remaining 75% of the banana was water. A 75:25 ratio, or just plain 300%HL -WOW !!!



           Table 3. Details of the Five Builds to Reach Maintenance Level Pure Banana Starter 300%HL


A series of five builds gave a progression of hydration levels, starting at 100%HL, then 233, 285, 297, 299 and finally got me to a maintenance level of a Pure Banana Levain with 300%HL. This Pure Banana Levian seemed more viscous than I had expected. It even tripled on a rise and did not collapse, as a 100%HL flour levain would do. I found I enjoyed eating the discards directly with a spoon. The taste is like banana with a touch of vodka added to it.



                   Table 3. Formula for Bread Using 49% Starter, where the Starter was Pure Banana Levain @ 300%HL


Of course, I made a new bread ASAP. The method was a close match to the one Shiao-Ping gives for her Banana-Pain-au-Levain. I calculated her loaf as having 38% banana (solids plus water), and this formula yields a loaf the is 49% banana (solids plus water).


The mixing, shaping and baking all went as expected.



                                                           The 49% Banana Loaf Made with Pure Banana Levain @ 300%HL



                                         The crumb of 49% Banana Loaf



It was unbelievable! There was no discernible banana flavor, as least none that I could detect. It was a fine loaf, tasted fine. It did stay moist longer than most sourdough loaves. The crumb and crust were certainly in an acceptable range and the flavor was a bit different, but more towards the taste of rye than anything else.


As must be evident by this point in my "banana saga", this whole banana thing was getting to me. So, what to do next. I already had worked out a formula that would use no additional water, other than that from bananas. It had a Baker's % of 81.5% banana, all of which was in the form of Pure Banana Levain #300%HL. But, I decided that until I had a better handle on where had all the flavor gone, I could see little point in proceeding. What had Shiao-Ping done that I was missing? Well, the best way to attempt an answer to that was to bake her loaf as given in her blog. Something I no doubt should have done in the beginning - a fact now not lost upon. :-(



      Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain Formula Recast with the Levain Build



          Repeat of Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain



          The crumb from the Repeat of Shiao-Ping's Banana Pain au Levain


Guess what.... No banana flavor that I could detect. I could not believe it. I followed the posted formula and methods as close as anyone could expect. I knew I was missing something, but WHAT !!!


Lacking any better idea, I went back to the original posting, intending to read ever word again. There it was - it hit me like one of the trees had fallen on me - in that forest I had never noticed for all of the trees... The second sentence - "... the bananas in my house have gone sesame (ie, growing freckles) ..." I have been using fresh bananas. Generally, they still even had some green at their stems.


Well, my next attempts will need to wait, until the bananas I have just purchased, have gone beyond sesame!


In my own very weak defense of missing the obvious, let me say that the only use I have ever made of bananas in baking had been in a 70 year old banana cookie recipe that I came across some time ago. In making those, I take fresh bananas, slice them into 1/4" thick rounds, and freeze them for a day, and then let them thaw in the fridge. They turn into a dark brown mush that a simple hand-held blender with single whisk-like blade can whip into a smooth mush. So, I carried this method over into this pursuit of the elusive (for me) banana flavored loaf.


It has actually been a worthwhile endeavor, I have new waffle alternatives, and a most unusual "Banana foaming levain desert" as a result, of my explorations. I also certainly have lots of new information to think about. There is one thing I am sure of, and that is that I will bake a banana flavored bread - no matter how long it takes.... LOL


RonRay


 


****************************************** Appended 101116 The Banana Saga Concluded長篇故事



 


Yesterday, the bananas had been aging for 2 weeks, since purchased. Even within the thin plastic grocery bag I could smell the strong banana scent fairly well. As I removed the plastic, two of the eight bananas fell off their common stem. They were “well passed ripe”. I made 484g of banana puree with them, and no water was required to make it, so there was 40g of water, that I was temped to drop from the formula for this batch of dough. I mentally chastised myself for that thought. I would make the closest match I could to the original Banana Pain au Levain in Shiao-Ping's blog. And that is exactly what I did.


 



     A Simple Restating of Shiao-Ping's Formula with the 75%HL Build Combined.


While I did stick to the formula values, and essentially the same procedures, I did differ in the baking method. Some of teketeke's experimenting with alternatives to Dutch Ovens had interested me (See link) http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143159 and other entries in the thread below. So, when I saw a sale on turkey baking pans / turkey ovens, I bought one.


I have a 2 quart cast iron Dutch Oven and an Emerilware Enameled Cast Iron 6-Quart Trinity Pot. The 2 quart is perfect for most of my boules, but the Emerilware 6-Quart is both too deep and too heavy for me to safely throw in and out of a screaming hot oven. Also, being as deep as it is, makes turning out a high hydration dough from a brotform into such a deep drop does too much damage to be practical. Lurking over Mini, Daisy and Akiko's posts gave me an idea, which I wanted to try and this 864g loaf, now rising in a brotform, was just the thing to try the idea out on. I cut the handle off of an old Teflon frying pan that was destine for recycling, so that it would fit within the turkey pan/oven. This would hold the loaf and there was room outside of it to add a small amount of boiling water just before closing the lid.



       Turkey Oven and Lid with Old Frying Pan - Less Handle Inside


 



       Risen Loaf in Brotform about to be placed into Handel-less Old Frying Pan



      Loaf in Frying Pan in Turkey Oven - Ready for about 90g of boiling water in Turkey Pan


 



      Finished Banana Bread Loaf


 


Crumb of Banana Bread Loaf


Ah, banana scent floating from the baking bread.... At last ;-) And old, old bananas was all it needed...


Crumb is rather moist, but very tasty. It was not as strong a banana flavor as I'd expected from the heavy scents that came off the puree and again during the mixing, rising or the baking, but it surely is enough, and would well and pleasantly do for now.  I found it a nice bread to add to the increasingly long bake list.  An a happy ending for the conclusion of my Banana Saga.


Ron


======== 101118 Note:


**********You might enjoy checking out the forum topic of Wild Yeast at:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts


Ron 雷朗


Next Loaf Baking: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts#comment-143857

 


 

Comments

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Akiko,


Thanks for this information. Even though there may be more charring with this method - this just makes it look more like the Tartine loaf LOL! Top looks superb.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

teketeke's picture
teketeke

About feeding ratio:



I fed as " OKIRAKU Tennen koubo" writer mentioned, 10g yeast, 1tsp honsey, 100g water.  It didn't fermente within 24 hours. 



I fed 50g 100% apple juice and 50g mix of the yeast, then It was fully fermented within 6 hours.


----------------------


I tried new " Dutch oven" method.  Mini suggested to use a wok.. I don't have any woks. so I just tried the shallow pan that I was using for the top for the dutch oven before.



The plate that is between the pizza stone and the pan is a camp stove toaster


Coghlan's Camp Stove Toaster


I used Susan's Norwich sourdough changing the hydration.


180g levain ( 90g fruit yeast, 90g bread flour (AK))


Final dough


450g bread flour ( Ak ) ( I used  50g rye flour and 400g ak bread flour)


58g whole wheat


267g water


11g salt


( This hydration is 60% overall) I think that 66% is better.   It was too dry.



I forgot to take a picture of this bottom! It was not burned!! I didn't retard it.  I think that is succesful.    I did use of Sylvia's steaming method in the same time. but I may not need it.  Franko used the Sylvia's method when he used a dutch oven.  His bread looked very good indeed. ----- That was my mistake, again. He used 2 different kinds of method, the first one is a dutch oven method and the second one is Sylvia's steaming method.  I remembered that he tested, and somehow. I mixed them up in my mind.   Next time I don't use the steaming method.and see what happen.


Happy baking!


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Akiko,


I see it comes out better with a shallower pan on top as Mini says. Maybe that is why using a bowl on top of my stone doesn't produce better results than stone and steaming - it's too deep! Will try with shallower pans if I can find any suitable.


Boule looks superb! It's so golden and well-shaped. What was the crumb like?


Best wishes, Daisy_A

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Hi, Daisy!


Yes, Mini is right about the method. Using 2 pans is much better than I put the big stainless bowl on the top on the pan.  


The crumb was like this. :)  My bread knife has to be replaced soon.   Today, I made OKIRAKU's boule that I posted yesterday. It was better than this. I will post the photos later. :)



Thank you for your kindness, ALWAYS :)   I focused on " yeast water ( or water yeast) a lot, then now I was working on " DUTCH OVEN" in the same time. I, myself was into " RUSH HOUR" situation :o  Now, I am okay :) I found my Dutch oven :)


Akiko

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Akiko,


Many thanks also for your kindness, particularly for translating my name. That was really special. 


I made a happy discovery. I had the bottom of a 'combi cooker' down in the cellar. The coating had become brown so I didn't want to use it directly with food. However I will try it covered in parchment to bake bread. The bread won't touch the sides directly. 


Good that you are out of 'Rush Hour'. Your loaves are looking great!


Kind regards, Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hi, Akiko


I, too am glad you are out of "Rush Hour" - I think we both there, and if you look at what the 3 of use have posted this past week, it is not surprising that we had rush hour problems.


If you have missed this post, please look at it:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143303


Also, would you be so good as to look at my AWY loaf posting and see if you have the same problems with missing images that Daisy reported to me - I would appreciate that:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20460/banana-saga-%E9%95%B7%E7%AF%87%E6%95%85%E4%BA%8B#comment-143250


Tonight my house smell of BANANAS.... ;-)


Ron


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

To Ron@ 香蕉房子 


I'm afraid the AWY crust and crumb pictures are the only images I can see. All other pictures from higher up the blog are now missing :-( I could see your 'chop' picture previously, but now it's gone too...


Daisy_A 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I could not see them for a while... but can now. Can you?


 


Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

That was a treat - those breads look spectacularly crackly and delicious.


Seem to have all pictures now except 'Second boule's crumb' for some reason.


Good to be able to see them. Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

If you don't mind check to see if you now have 'Second boule's crumb'...


I uploaded all images as a refresh, and missed that one. (~^~)


Ron 雷朗


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Daisy_A 雛菊  

RonRay's picture
RonRay

The completion of this, my first experimentation with yeast water leavening, came yesterday afternoon when I got my first taste of my first loaf. It all started for me a week ago Saturday, when Daisy_A pointed me to a TFL thread started by Wao, nearly 3 years ago - in Feb. 2008 "Baking with natural wild yeast water (not sourdough)" :
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/6012/baking-natural-wild-yeast-water-not-sourdough
This first of 3 loaves came out as well, or better, than I had expected, except for the flavor, which was excellent other than for the fact that I could discern no apple flavor , perhaps, I am "taste blind" to fruits ... LOL



Method:
a/ Mix the water with the levain, then add the flour and combined in large bowl and give 20 minutes to autolyze.
b/ Mix in the salt and do 1 set S&F (30/set), then cover and rest 20 minutes.
c/ Do two additional sets of 30 S&F, at 20 minutes intervals.
d/ Let the covered dough rest 10 minutes after the third set of S&F. During that 10 minutes prepare 3, 1L/1Qt covered plastic containers by dropping 1/4_tsp of olive oil, or grape seed oil into each container. Spread the oil on the inside to lightly cover.
e/ This should place you at about 1-1/2 hours from the initial mixing. Prepare the work-surface with a Silpat sheet, dusted with APF.  Turn out the dough on the lightly dusted Silpat sheet. Stretch into a rectangle and do a letter fold (or two) then form a rough log of the dough. Cut the dough into 3, equal (weigh) pieces and form each into ball shapes.
f/ Place each ball of dough into one of the 3 containers. Manipulate the containers and dough balls to oil the surfaces of the 3 doughs.  Cover and place into a fridge for retardation of 8 hours, to 8 days.
g/ When you want to bake a loaf, just take out a container . Turn out the dough, gently shape, and place in preferred proofing form to rise.
H/ I removed 1st loaf after overnight, shaped to boule, and dropped it into a floured cloth nest. Place in an 80ºF(26.6ºC) proofing box.
I/ It was given 6 hours of re-warming and rising. Dutch Oven (DO) preheated 30 minutes to 450ºF(232ºC). Boule turned out into the preheated DO, slashed, and inside of rim of the DO sprayed and lid covered it at once, then returned to oven at 450ºF(232ºC). Since, all required steam is inside the DO, no external steaming method was used. That is the main reason I love a DO method some much.
j/ At 15 minutes, oven reset to 400ºF (204º C), and at 20 minutes DO cover removed
k/ At 30 minutes, turned out of DO and placed loaf on oven stones, until 45 minutes.
l/ Internal = 211.9ºF / 99.9ºC and weight = 325g (down from about 380g - 15% drop in weight.
m/ Cooled on wire for 1 hour before cutting.



     Apple Water Yeast Boule baked in Dutch Oven


 




The taste was excellent. No trace of sourness, but none of apple, either. A very slight sweetness, or perhaps, it was the lack of sourness?


I look forward to seeing if the is a taste change as I get to try the other two loaves, presently undergoing prolonged retardation in the low 30ºF (1 to 2ºC) condition.


Ron


 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Congratulation and Thank you for taking a time to write this post with excellent details, Ron!   I like your scoring pattern that is very popular in Japan.   My fruit yeast breads are not sour at all, either. I like these breads.


I think that is natural that you didn't taste apples into your loaves when you use " levain" method. That is what other Japanese bakers who bake bread with fruit yeast say the same thing.   Especially, When you used apples for your fruit yeast, the bread will be milder than the other kinds of fruit yeast bread.  I read these things in some Japanese websites. 


I am interested in what you wrote that " retard your loaves 8 hours to 8 days" That is very new to me.  Have you tried to retard your bread for 8 days? It is like refrigerated pizza dough! 


Sometimes, I use the baking ratio when I make baguettes like you did above. ( 15% baking ratio)  I may try it for my loaves with fruit yeast, too :)


Happy baking、Ron 雷朗 :)


Akiko 亜希子


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Thank you, Akiko, for those kind words. The loaf was very much a success, I think. I like sour sourdough - sometimes. I have no one to eat my bread, except myself. So, I often make dough and split it into 3 parts, I keep one refrigerator, that I store flour, and such storage items, very cold 33-36ºF. I place two of the three pieces of dough there. The longer a dough piece is retarded the more sour it becomes. The longest test was 15 days and it made beautiful loaves, but they were so sour that they made the throat sour if I ate too much at one time LOL I want to see if the AWY loaves start to be sour, as well.


Sometimes, I use the baking ratio when I make baguettes like you did above. ( 15% baking ratio) I may try it for my loaves with fruit yeast, too :)

I do not understand what 15% your are referring to? The only thing I said that was 15% was the weight lost from before baking until after... The loaf lost 15% weight in water while baking. Did you mean that 15%?


Ron

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 Hi, Ron


We some of Japanese home bakers  calculate how much water lost after baking their breads like you do.


Here is the baking ratio:


 



A ( The bread's weight  before baking ) - B( The bread's weight after baking) ÷ A x100 =  Ratio of  how much water the bread lost.



 As I calculte your bread's baking ratio that you made above,


380-325÷380x100= 14.47368  So,, It is close to 15%   or 14%  if 14.47368 is rounded off to the second decimal places.


 For baguettes- 20-23% around.  ( some bakers say that will be up to 25%)


For sandwich breads- 10-11% ( some bakers say that will be up to 15% )


For boules-20-22%


For Sweet breads→8%


For batards→20%


:) Akiko


 


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Akiko,


I understand now.  I always do that - if I remember to make both measurements in time LOL  But, I just had not thought of it as a 'Ratio', which, of course, it is.


Thank you for the other ratio information, as well.  That is good reference material.


Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Ron,


That's a great achievement in just one week!


I'm sure that the rigorous way in which you controlled the temperature and logged the data helped.


However the proof is in the eating and that loaf looks delicious - such a golden crust and glistening, open crumb!


Flourgirl posted on another thread about making a less sour bread with wild yeasts. I suggested she look here. Don't know if she's picked up on that yet.


Anyway - good going. Be interesting to see how the retarded loaves turn out.


Best wishes, Daisy_a

RonRay's picture
RonRay


Hi, Daisy-雛菊 & Akiko-亜希子


It was a busy ... (€¿€)


Just looking down this thread has gotten to be like going through Grand Central Station at 5:15 on a Friday....


One thing that can help reduce Dutch Oven Burned Bottoms is reducing the direct thermal transfer at the bottom of the loaf. Wheat brand, Semolina Flour, parchment paper and combination steps - like grains of uncooked rice with a form-cut disk of parchment paper to fit over the rice covering the bottom of the Dutch Oven BEFORE the raised-loaf gets dumped in on it all work to some degree.


Ron


 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

Thank you for the tip that is helpful, Ron!


I use parchment paper all the time when I make breads.  Many members of TFL use semolina flour for it.  I will get the flour soon. Thank you, Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

You are rubbish at using parchment paper. Use rice semolina flour next time! LOL

RonRay's picture
RonRay

"rubbish" you say?



Ron 雷朗

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

1 Parchment is not so well known in the UK. Thought it was the same as greaseproof, until the greaseproof paper went to ashes in the oven.


2 As a novice baker was nervous of approaching a very hot oven. Decided to transfer a baguette using parchment under it. Steadied it on the peel. Stepped back in relief after a deft oven transfer. After baguette took twice as long to cook, realised I had also er... peeled the peel and then steamed it. LOL (Luckily my peel is just a cheap bread board. Still use it but it is now curved).


3 Decided to use parchment paper in a Dutch Oven. Best parchment paper from the store is not that wide. Didn't want the paper to just sit under the loaf as I wanted to be able to remove the loaf using the paper. Cut it just long enough to handle. This was also just long enough for it to flop down over the loaf during baking and crimp it. Might have been attractive with regular crimps but crimps were off, making loaf look like  a flower cookie made by a drunken baker :-( 


4 Got best parchment is store but it is still only good to 230C. Pre-heated oven to 250C then turned down to 230C for baking but parchment still gave off odd fumes. Won't be doing that again...


In fact I'll probably go back to baking bread directly onto the stone...


Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Take your point tho' you got to love big stations ;-0


Do you think it's time for Banana Saga, Thread 2 or a thread with a title about fruit yeast for others who are interested?


Sadly I can't see all your photos, although I can see the last two. Would resizing help and cut thread length?


Anyway top thread and I got to see everyone's names as calligraphs :-)


Hi Akiko - I remember Franko did use parchment for his bake - could be good? Ron's science seems to make sense, anyway.


Hi Ron - Don't know if you saw on your way across the station but I left a comment higher up about your art. 


Best wishes, Daisy_A 雛菊

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I think something like Water, Water Every Yeast, or Yeasty Water Yeast would be a better thought.


If you, or Akiko wants to start a new thread, that would be fine. If not, I can do a consolidation posting as a new topic thread after the final two AWY loaves have been baked. But that may be a week from now.


My bananas for a new attempt at banana bread are near black - bought them Nov 3rd. I just started the levain build this morning, and hope to be retarding overnight. (^_^)


Sadly I can't see all your photos, although I can see the last two. Would resizing help and cut thread length?

I do not understand why that would be true? Enlighten me, please 雛菊.


Anyway top thread and I got to see everyone's names as calligraphs :-)

Well, how about Yeasty 雛菊 Yeasty 亜希子 Yeasty 雷朗書家


Is that what you had in mind? ROFL


Don't know if you saw on your way across the station but I left a comment higher up about your art.

I have now...Blush Thank you for the kind words. I had a long time to practice - did my 1st oil in 1951..in Paris... I think I'm getting old LOL


Ron 雷郎

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Ron,


Was just thinking we need to know the end of the Banana Saga first! 


Just thought you were saying the page was getting too full to navigate easily (like a station at rush hour). I think on another thread they put part 2 when posts got over 100. However we need to know the end of the Banana Saga before we have the Banana Saga Returns or Banana Saga 11: Yeast Water :-)


I'm afraid at my end the links to your pictures are all broken apart from the apple bread crust and crumb and the formulae (if these are jpgs). All I get is a box with a question mark. 


I thought it might be to do with size. I tried to load a 800x600 pixel photo the other day and the system would not take it even though this is the permitted max. However this doesn't explain all absences as the smaller pictures are not coming though either, sadly. I tried to view the page in another browser and there were even fewer of your pictures. Akiko's are not effected so I think the links to your images must be broken somehow...Would be good to see them.


I see - Yeasty Daisy, Yeasty Akiko, Yeasty Ron Ray, artist?


Paris, 1951. That must have been fun.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hi, Daisy


Was just thinking we need to know the end of the Banana Saga first!

I just told Akiko that my house smells of BANANA tonight. I agree about a "finish"... (^_^) and I can smell the finish line.. I just put the dough in a brotform and placed it in a 44-47ºF fridge for an overnight retardation, What a difference those overripe bananas make. That is all I could smell while doing the 2-1/2 hours of the bulk fermentation and the S&M sets. I am sure this will happily close the saga ... applause


I also asked Akiko to check to see if she is missing images, like you reported.


Paris, 1951. That must have been fun.

Yes it was. I was living in London then, and bought a field painter's set of oils and went to Paris for three weeks - living in the student quarter. I had a list of contacts from a Med student friend of mine in London - "That I had to meet!" Funny how memory works. I can call up clear images of places and people from those 3 weeks, to this day.


Tomorrow... Banana Bread that taste like bananas   (ô¿ô)


Old Man Ray

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Ron,


Good to hear about the banana progress. I tried to send you a calligraph (translated roughly in Google), To Ron@ 香蕉房子  - Ron@ Banana House (LOL).


Look forward to seeing the result.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Daisy,


I just ask Google to translate your set of glifs and it said:


"Child incense 蕉房"


Ron 雷朗


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

I did do reverse translation - 3 times! LOL. WIll have to double check that one.


Aha - I managed to get glifs that make sense in both Chinese Traditional and Japanese. Should have said intended Chinese Traditional, which is still giving me Banana House :-) Sorry Ron, didn't mean to say Ron@ Child Incense.


Daisy_A 雛菊 

teketeke's picture
teketeke

I will wait for you to start a new topic of "Yeasty 雛菊 Yeasty 亜希子 Yeasty 雷朗書家"  :P  If you don't mind.   


I really like the OKIRAKU's recipe that I made today.


I will look forward to test other kinds of bread recipe with fruit yeast in Japan for the new topic :) It may be better than using Hamelman's or other sorts of bread recipe with sourdough culture because the hydration is different, I think..


By the way, I didn't taste grapefruit, but I tasted more flovor than just sweetness. Not sour at all.   My children love it more than the sourdough. I didn't retard it.


P.S I am sorry that I continued to put some pictures of the bread.  I wanted to show you this result in the end of this topic.


:) Akiko 亜希子


 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Oh, those photo make a good series. Looks like a very successful day, Akiko ;-)


Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

What an accomplishment! The yeast water and bread look so beautiful. In fact I think that is one of the things that attracts me to fruit yeast water. It looks so beautiful in the jar as well as making good bread.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

teketeke's picture
teketeke

 Thank you for your compliment, Ron and Daisy!


 So far, so good! :)   Feeding fresh fruit makes my yeast water or ( water yeast) more active.   I found out that I don't like feeding 100% fruit juice because I taste of sweetness that I don't like.  Feeding fresh fruit is little trouble but it comes out wonderful bread that has a lot of flavor. 


I also found out that my fresh grapefruit yeast rises faster when I made OKIRAKU boule today.   The levain rose 3.5 times volume in bulk.


  " OKIRAKU" recipe,  My formula will be like this below.


http://www2.memenet.or.jp/yukine/mokumoku/bread/bread_howto3.html


200g levain ( 100g fruit yeast, 100g bread flour)


440g bread flour ( OR 330g bread flour +55g whole wheat flour + 55g rye flour)


264g water


10g salt


Method:


 the levain -( 12 hours) at 70F


Autolize-30 minutes----- Added salt


Bulk fermentation-1 hour 40 minutes ( 1 fold- interval 50 minutes)


Final proof - 1 hour


-Dutch oven method-Preheat 470F Bake 460F 10 minutes  (when I put the loaf, I sprayed around the top of the pan), Decreased to 450F 10 minutes ( I took out the top of the pan), continued to bake 20 more minutes. 



I gave one of my husband's co-worker whom I gave " SIMPLE WHEAT BREAD" that was posted by Daisy:) to.   She was very happy to get the loaf.


I gave a half of the "OKIRAKU" boule to my neighbor yesterday, too.  They all loved the bread. When I knocked at the door to gave another bread that was 5 grain bread with white starter plus grapefruit yeast to them,  A son who is 9 years old opened the door, then he was smiling as soon as he saw the loaf.  The mother said, " The bread ( okiraku) was  really good!"  



I am so glad to have my fruit yeast!  Again I added more pictures... and this Ron's Banana Saga will blow up LOL


Akiko

teketeke's picture
teketeke

To Ron and daisy


I could see all of Ron's photos.  hmm... What is wrong with that?

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hi, Akiko,


Daisy told me, earlier that some of my photos were missing for her - just boxes with [???]. So, I needed to know if it was true for everyone, or perhaps just limited individuals, of possibly only Daisy. So, your report of seeing them all pleases me.


Ron


 

RobynNZ's picture
RobynNZ

Hi guys


I have been enjoying following along on this very active thread! What a lot of work the 3 of you have been putting in. And lovely breads appearing now too!


Today Ron, like Daisy_A, I can not see any of your photos except the last set. I'm on Mac OSX and have a reliable broadband connection. Usually if I switch browsers Safari/Firefox/Chrome I can get photos on TFL to load. At present in Safari the rest are all blank white boxes except for a small question mark, with a blue background. In Chrome again big blank with a little icon. In Firefox there isn't even a blank. I have occasionally seen those photos, but there is always one or more sets blank.


Over the last few days I haven't been able to see all of Akiko's photos, regardless of browser, either. Some of them I could, some were partially loaded and others completely blank.  Well today I can see all of Akiko's photos on my default browser Safari.


So my theory that thread length might be involved apparently doesn't hold....


Nevertheless I vote for a new thread to extend this one until the banana saga itself is  complete. And maybe another one for the yeast water.....


Cheers, Robyn

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hi, Robyn-


Glad you were lurking ;-)


What I believe will be the end of The Banana Saga is out of retardation and in the proofing box. Later today, I hope to be eating a flavor-full banana bread. So, it shouldn't be too long in any case.


I think there is more than enough information, interest, and examples to justify a consolidated topic thread on the subject again.


Ron


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Robyn,


Good to hear from you! Maybe it's a Mac OS thing, then, as that is my mode of connection, also? It's odd, though, because it is only certain threads and not site wide.


However I have to say the pictures seem to be back today, which is good news.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

teketeke's picture
teketeke

I am glad that you can see all my photos now :) 


Thank you so much all your help, Robyn!!  


Akiko

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Akiko, Daisy, Mini, Robyn, AnnaInMD, and any lurks with an opinion.....


I would like all of your opinions on this. I can no longer edit the initial - The Banana Saga 長篇故事 - blog posting - I think TFL has some time limit on edits?


Here is what I'd like your opinions on: The Banana Saga Completion 長篇故事
The loaf is cooling, and it will be sometime, tonight or tomorrow, before I'll have the posting finished.
Since, I cannot edit The Banana Saga 長篇故事, if I post on this thread, it will be a "reply" tacked at the end of this thread. If I post as a new blog - The Banana Saga Completion 長篇故事 - I can point back to this thread.


So,
A/ Tack it on this blog thread as a [ reply ].


B/ Post a new blog - The Banana Saga Completion 長篇故事 - pointing back to this thread.


C/ Post as a [ reply ] to the First reply posted, namely Anna's..


 


What do you think is the best course of action?


Ron 雷朗


 


 


Problem solved.... Thanks to Daisy-雛菊 ...I now know where the [Edit] tab is. Now, if I can just remember that until tomorrow.
Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Ron,


Don't know if convention has changed but if it was only written on 6 November 2010 the post should still be editable via the edit tag at the top of the box? (Looks like a file tag?) I can still get the edit option for blog posts earlier than this.


In other similar circumstances posters seem to have chosen either A or B, as far as I recall.


Look forward to report.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Ah, Dear Lady, I do thank yee... [Edit] tag noted... I was looking at the end - where edit appears on messages such as this.


Problem solved....   Thank you, Daisy ;-)


Ron 雷朗


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Glad it worked Ron :-)


I only know this because I spent a mountain of time staring perplexed at the bottom of my blog, before reading the same message in another member's post.


Good to be able to pass it on.  Best, Daisy_A 雛菊

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Daisy, I had a real sinking feeling as the photos all started to 'dissolve'....{-:True, but funny  ;-}


Ron 雷朗


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

You mean you lost them at your end as well?


Btw - as above, Ron@Banana House in traditional Chinese but yes, Ron@Child Incense in Japanese. Lo siento - Sorry (literally I feel it), in Spanish! Should have said Chinese.


Daisy_A 雛菊 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Daisy, I have made far worse verbal confusions between "American" and "British" word meanings when I live in the UK... We will not go into those, however.


I just posted the Updated (Edited) Conclusion of the Banana Saga.... Thankfully, because I have had a killer neck-headache since the middle of last night.


Ron 雷朗


 

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

of how to make sure the dough always rises:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/4608/steam-injection-home-oven


I have had great success with the ice cubes around the spring form.


Hope your head and neck pains have resolved.


Best,


anna


PS:  I just saw your post re help with editing. I believe, Daisy was able to assist.

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Thanks, Anna


I will have to check my oven and that "steaming thing" his wife bought. But it has possibilities. Thanks for pointing me to it.


Yes, Daisy set me straight on the edit tab <Blush


My neck/headache is much better. Those things can be quite debilitating (~^~)


Ron


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Yes, that American <>English thing works the other way round as well!


Sorry you were suffering a headache. Good to see the Banana Saga concluded with such a fine, banana-flavoured bread. Although I have to say that crust and crumb on all of them have looked delectable.


Kind regards, Daisy_A 雛菊 

RonRay's picture
RonRay

Daisy,


Well, I just had several slices of what is now a day old banana bread and it is still holding up well - including the crust ;-)


Check your TFL messages.


Ron


 


 

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