The Fresh Loaf

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Today 8 Loaves - 1 Doz. Buns for Sandwiches

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SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Today 8 Loaves - 1 Doz. Buns for Sandwiches

I baked some loaves for friends today and also a dozen of my 'Buns for Sandwiches' for this week-ends bar-b-que holiday.  I had to use my bottom oven for the buns.  It is not convection and the buns come out more evenly browned and bake a little faster in the convection oven setting.


The recipe for these delicious and Basic White Sourdough loaves with 100% hydration starter is HERE and the Buns for Sandwiches is http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/17329/buns-sandwiches .


                                  



                                                                 ADDED this should read 100% 'Levain' hydration



                                            Delicious full of flavor with just the right amount of sourdough tang and sweet flavor at the end, that melts in your mouth.  Crusty, crunchy crust...my husband loves it and raves about the flavor..I must have hit his 'sweet spot' : )  I've also made this bread with added rye and it is also delicious...I have to say it... the all white is our favorite!


 


                                                                                 


 


            Have a great weekend!


                   Sylvia


                                             


 

Comments

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Your guests are quite fortunate, Sylvia.  What a pretty presentation!


Gosh, I envy your organization and planning.  I just pulled my levain out of the cooler, refreshed it,  and now trying to figure out what I'll bake with it tomorrow - after a few more refreshments and a day at the office.  Something that will be retarded overnight, for certain!  ;-)


Enjoy your festivities!

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Nothing beats retarding overnight.  I pulled them out of the frig in half hour intervals and that helped with oven space.  I did the sd in 3 bakes..they were all meant to go into the wfo at once....I never make that many loaves for indoor baking, then decided it's better doing wfo baking on the weekend when Mike's home all day and enjoys more time to eat and relax, and it's easier on me.


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I went to the link with the recipe and it seems quite straight forward. I ordered some sourdough starter from KA (I was anxious to get started with sourdough baking again) and it should be ready to use sometime today. I am really looking forward to getting back into sourdough baking and it's going to be a nice cool week-end here so I should be able to get some breads done without heating up the house. I think I will give your sourdough recipe a try.

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

It's a nice basic sourdough and the directions are easy to follow...you can also play around with the formula adding your own special touches.


Sylvia

jemar's picture
jemar

Hello Sylvia, 


May I ask if you use a lid to cover your loaves while they are baking as it says in the instructions?  I have never done this, I don't think I have a lid deep enough to allow for the dough rising in the oven.  Would it make much difference to the out come if I baked this recipe without the lid?  As you can tell, I am a bit of a novice with sourdough loaves, I can never rely on the results being that good, I am still searching for the ideal recipe!

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Hi, jema,


The way I steamed these loaves is pictured above.  There are many ways to steam...pick one that suits you best and that you are happy with the results..and always be very careful when steaming not to burn yourself.  I try them all..I've baked under la cloches, under tin foil lids 'like one of those large foil turkey pans', under stainless steel bowls, I have a steamer injector pan and steamer, large blue porcelain turkey pans make a good cover like the one used you see on the Northwest site.  Some just toss the water into the bottom of their oven...I don't care for this method on my oven... Always make sure you have a towel over the glass, if you have glass on your oven door, while applying water into your steaming device..such as the iron/lava stones, you don't want your glass to crack on your oven door and be careful of your oven light, too.  Use caution when applying steam.  You will see a definate difference in loaves that have not been steamed...right now my favorite way of steaming is using the iron frying pan filled with lava stones...though I steam from above as pictured..the iron pans with the lava stones are usually placed below your oven stones..my stones block the steam if the iron, lava stone filled pans are placed below the stones.


Sylvia 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Slyvia:

Wow! Besides your beautiful loaves, shifting the steaming device to the top also demonstrates your baker's wisdom. In addition to its intended function, it also provides a steady heat source from the top. I bet it's essential in creating the nice colors and desirable crusts in your breads.

When baking multiple/larger quantity loaves simultaneously, do you adjust the timing and oven temperature to a different setting from what you would normally use?

Thanks for sharing.

Yippee

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

It seems I'm forever adjusting heat setting to suit what and how I'm baking.  When baking multiple loaves the oven tends to lose heat and that has to be allowed for so I also stagger my loaves coming from the frig...and try to give the oven/stones time to regain it's heat, before the next batch goes.


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

Sylvia:


I mixed this up this afternoon. Is it supposed to be an extremly wet dough? I even added another cup of flour and it's still very slack and sticky. It's sitting in the bowl waiting for its first fold right now but it's so wet I'm not sure it's foldable. Please advise...


Trish

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

A cup of flour sounds like a lot..you need to give the gluten a chance to work in this enriched dough.  I used Gold Medal Bread flour, on the ones above and added about a 2 Tbsp. more flour..the dough will be very loose and a bit sticky but with the autolyse,  stretch and folds comes together nicely..give the gluten time to work.  I transfer mine after first autolyse, into an oiled bowl for the stretch and folds.  Dampen your hands, helps when folding dough.  Sorry I was so late.  Let me know how they turn out.


Sylvia 

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I put the dough in the fridge to chill overnight and it's now sitting in a banneton and a brotform - hopefully it will rise. I plan on baking it regardless. Someone commented that I might have old flour which could be the case. I dumped out the rest of what was in the bin and have a fresh new bag. If this doesn't work - I will try try again =).


T

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Using the KA for all the mixing.  As dmsnyder said, Norm's knot rolls are very similar and he does an all mixer, mixing and one bulk rise.  Maybe that might work for better handling for you..he mixes in the KA for -15-20 min. till dough cleans the sides of the bowl.  Also use a good bread flour.  I like for my buns to have a little openess in the crumb and I also like the dried milk powder's result I get from the King Arthur brand milk powder...maybe it's just me but I their milk powder.


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I will use the KA 6 quarter mixer today and see if I get better results.

jemar's picture
jemar

I come on here quite regularly but I don't make comments that often.  I may be doing something  wrong because i notice most or all comments have the words 'Flag as offensive' written after them but mine doesn't.  Can anyone enlighten me as to why?  I am not very 'au fait' with  procedures as you can tell!

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

Probably since you would be highly unlikely to flag your own comments as offensive. At least that my guess. It doesn't appear to me on my comments either.


T

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Sylvia,


Lovely bread; I'd prefer it with the rye  myself, but, as you say, they must both taste as delicious as these breads look


Best wishes


Andy

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

They are both delicious and I also enjoy the rye addition...next batch : )


Sylvia 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Sylvia, I always disliked the idea of buns - the squishy, tasteless supermarket variety - but yours look so nice I definitely will try your recipe!


Yippee, if you bake multiple loaves at the same time (as I always do, since I sell them) this is what you have to keep in mind:


1. Don't overload your oven, if the breads are too near the oven walls they might burn. In my regular oven I can bake maximal six regular breads on two racks, and six baguettes in perforated pans.


2. Rotate the breads after half the baking time, not only 180 degrees but also between racks, even with convection the heat is never totally even.


3. Since your oven door will be open longer because of rotating breads and sheet pans, your baking time will be about 5 minutes longer.


Jemar, Trishinomaha is right, you are not supposed to flag your own comments as offensive, therefore this option doesn't appear there.


Karin


 


 


 

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I love the smell of the rosemary, coming from the oven.  I give the sprigs a good soaking in water before inserting them...they tend to dry out when baked..but they are attractive little garnishes and easily removed when biting into the buns and delicious to, when added right into the batter.  I've also used thyme twigs and dried tomato, sage...I just like messing around with little garnishes...the tomato made the buns with a pressed in pattern look like hat's with a red feather..if you can imagine..but tended to burn on the tips..but if the it's turned inwards where the garnish faces towards another bun, they tend to be a little better protected from the heat.


                 my fun feather in the hat buns


                          


           Sylvia

Yippee's picture
Yippee

for your information. Baking multiple loaves is something I've wanted to try ultimately but I'd been struggling with getting my oven temperatures right with just one loaf. It's good to hear from someone who has had the actual experience. Thank you.

Yippee

jemar's picture
jemar

Thank you T and Karin, I understand now!

wally's picture
wally

Sylvia- The sourdough crumb is gorgeous - and your buns, as always, are attractive :>)


Larry

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

You always have the nicest things to say.  Mike, thinks that bun looks like a smiley face...my answer, well maybe at that angle..ha, ha...Fall is in the air.  I'm getting in the mood for baking and, messing around in the kitchen.


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I am trying this recipe again today and I am trying my best to understand recipes in percentages. I think if I don't get this part I'm doomed to make mediocre sourdough bread for the rest of my days. It came to me this morning that if I took 151 grams of my mature starter (which is very thick like thick pancake batter), 151 grams of water and 151 grams of flour and mixed it together I would have the 453 grams of starter I need for this recipe and I would have made a 100% hydration starter. Is this right? If not, can you explain in layman's terms? Thanks for bearing with me everyone =)

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

This is a nice little post by holds99 - Howard - might be helpful - scrool down to - Thanks Mantana, http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18760/mich-variation I messaged you the link that works, to holds99 blog on mich-variation post.


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

Got the PM and read the post. That does make perfect sense for a newbie like me who is really trying to get it right this time. I will copy and save that for future reference. This morning I did mix up 151g of starter, 151g of water and 151g of flour. I just checked on it a few minutes ago and it has doubled! I'm excited - I plan on mixing the dough in a few minutes with my KA - I will keep you posted.


Trish

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Happy baking : )

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

With all your helpful comments I think I may have mastered this idea of formulas - Today's dough looks much better than yesterday's. This is just mixed up waiting for its hourly folding. Thanks all - bake tomorrow...we'll see how it turns out.


 


ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Trish,


It would be right if you think your 151 g of starter was made up of 75.5g of water and 75.5g of flour in the first place.


100% hydration in the starter just means there is equal amounts of flour and water; ie. your flour is hydrated at 100%.


You may well have to take a guess this time round, but in future it is worth knowing exactly how your refresh your starter, so you know what the hydration is before you then add more flour and water to feed it up.


Hope this makes sense


Best wishes


Andy

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

Thanks for your reply Andy. If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying is that I need to start a completely new starter in order to get the 100% hydration starter?

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Trish,


That seems a bit extreme.   I'd go down the "guess route" I was trying to point you in.


So, if you go with your first idea, then your leaven would be made up of:


1. Starter 151g; made up of 75.5g of water and 75.5g of flour


2. Flour 151g


3. Water 151g


The total would be 453g, of which 226.5g is flour and 226.5g is water.


For arguements sake, say you have 50g of leaven leftover once you have made your next dough, then that would be made up of 25g of flour and 25g of water.   All you need to do from there is make sure your feeding regime consists of equal parts flour and water, and that you are aware how much old starter is used as seed.   That way your levain will always be maintained at 100%.


You'll no doubt have worked hard to create a viable levain, so don't throw it out and start again.


Hope this makes more sense as an easy feeding system.


Best wishes


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I posted on this subject in another topic recently. With apologies for the double post:



First, do weigh ingredients, even when feeding your starter.


Second, you are correct regarding how hydration is calculated. In fact, the baker's percentage of any ingredient is represented by the formula:


(Ingredient weight/Total flour weight) x 100 = Baker's % of Ingredient


So, if Ingredient = water, then Hydration = (Water wt./Total flour wt.) x 100.


Note: My original posting of this message had significant math errors. I have deleted that content, and added a more accurate response.



How can I take a wet starter and make a starter with 66% hydration?



Example:



To make a 66% hydration starter from a 125% seed starter:


Assume your seed starter will provide 25% of the total flour in the final starter.


Assume you want to make 100 g of final starter.


The total content of the final starter should be 40.33 g of water and 60.67 g flour.


Then the amount of flour in the seed starter should be 60.67 x 0.25 = 15.17 g. 


If the seed starter is 125% hydration, the water content would be 15.17 x 1.25 = 18.96 g.So, the total seed starter weight would be 18.96 + 15.17 = 34.13 g.


Subtracting the water in the seed starter from the total water in the final starter (40.33 - 18.96), you would need to mix the 34.13 g of seed starter with 21.37 g of additional water.


The amount of flour to add to this would be the total flour minus the flour in the seed starter, or 60.67 - 15.17 = 45.5 g.


Thus, the formula to make 100 g of 66% hydration starter, starting with a 125% hydration seed starter, would be:


Seed starter  34.13 g


Water  21.37 g


Flour  45.5 g


Total 101 g (due to rounding to 2 decimal places)


 Of course, if the total amount of starter you want to make or the amount of pre-fermented flour you want in your starter changes, the numbers change. But the way to do the calculations is the same.




 


Hope this helps.


David


 

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I have been reading up on this all day off and on from many sources including Breadtopia. I'm sure my Dad, who is a retired engineer, would understand all this perfectly. The one major "light bulb" going off over my head now is that ingredients in starters need to be measured by weight not volume. That's how I was confusing myself. If I think of it in terms of weight it makes perfect sense. I did go ahead with the 151 g of starter, 151 gram of water and 151 g of flour and it has doubled. I will be mixing the dough in a few minutes in my KA mixer. When I tried this yesterday I tried to do it by hand. I think I need to learn  the mixer method first and then progress to the "by hand" method. Thanks so much everyone for your help - it's pitiful to be so dense but I have it now =).

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

very much, because I could never explain something in as much detail..without messing it up.  Thanks for your help, David!


Sylvia

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I have got the starter, flour and water portioned out at 151 grams each and will now wait to see it rise. Hopefully I'll get to the dough today. It needs an overnight retard in the fridge anyway. Thanks so much for your patience!

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


Thanks for posting, I hope it helps Trish.


Given my background, you'll probably realise that knowing the amount of flour and water in the seed culture was critical to me, as that seed culture weighed in at 41kg.


Additionally, I'm not a big one for altering the hydration of starters.   I tend to do the alternative, and adapt the recipe/formula so I can make it using a leaven of my own preferred hydration.   This is easier for me, but I appreciate it is not so easy for those less experienced in working with leavens.


Basically, my wheat leaven stays at 60% hydration, and my rye sour at 167% hydration.   I have made some recent exceptions when baking some of the Hamelman rye formulae.   But these are rare.


All good wishes


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I understand that some bakeries keep multiple starters going, and this makes sense if you are using each one daily. For the weekend baker, maintaining multiple starters would be a chore, and being able to do conversions with ease (and without panicking) is desirable. 


Even granted that difference, I wonder if you could help me understand your reluctance to alter starter hydration as needed.


When a formula author specifies a liquid levain for one bread and a firm levain for another, I assume it is to achieve a particular desired flavor profile. I increasingly try to respect this out of respect for the author (mostly Hamelman or Suas these days). Now, I can't say I have ever done a concurrent bake of two batches of dough, one with the author's specified levain and the other with a levain of differing hydration. Maybe I wouldn't notice a difference. Maybe I would.


When I return to the SFBI to take the Artisan II workshop, which focuses on SD baking, I expect we will do that very experiment. 


Regards,


David

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


Thank you , of course, for raising such an interesting question.   Just a little thought: not sure we should be conducting this conversation on Sylvia's thread, but I will reply anyway, and see how it develops, if that's ok with you...and Sylvia?


Firstly, we maintained only 2 starters at Village Bakery, where production was VERY heavy.   A rye sour made Borodinsky, Raisin Borodinsky and Rossisky.   We maintained upto 14 x 50kg bins at any one time.   Our wheat levain was used to make upto 180kg of French Leaven every 8 hours.   We used this to make Pain de Campagne and Pane Toscano.   Two starters on this scale was quite enough to manage!


I do fully appreciate what you write about difference in flavour profile, believe me.   I first started working with sourdough cultures way back in 1987.   We maintained a liquid levain made with an 85% extraction local flour.   I'm not sure I'd know where to begin in trying to list the number of different pre-ferments I've worked with since then.   However, it's given me a good basis for understanding the characteristics of stiff and liquid cultures and the likely consequences for using each in a given formula.


I'll try to compare it to your professional world, as a surgeon, yes?   No doubt you have referred to work by any number of experts over the years.   But, when it comes to carrying out your practice, this has to be YOURS.   You don't try to copy exactly the work of one particular person you most admire.   It is the same for me.   I make the bread I want to make and am happy to be accountable for with myself [and my lovely wife, of course!]   Additionally, I do have a day job which takes up a sizeable portion of the days and weeks,and also involves bakery practice.   My posts on TFL are largely the "work" I do at home in my spare time!   The new learning from that is no less valid.


Regarding respect: I have sought and found inspiration in any number of authors.  I would endorse both the 2 you cite, and count Mr. Hamelman's work as some of the most influential of any on my personal practice.   But, I rarely copy anyone's recipes and formulae.   I take your point absolutely.   Do it in the minutiae, and you will get every bit of detail intended from Hamelman...and his work is written up in such a way that you really can do that.


Bottom line; I'm a professional baker, and have been for 23 years.   I want the work that I do to be my work, not a copy of another master baker.   PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, as arrogance.    I really do have the utmost respect for many authors, so long as they produce balanced formulae which compute in both percentages and grams[kg].   If that given works, then I produce my own version, and take full responsibility for the end result.   Along the way, the original author takes credit for the inspiration....Hats off to Hamelman et. al.


Very best wishes


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I very much appreciate you sharing your perspective.


Clearly, I am just barely learning about the subtle effects of different pre-ferments. I know the theory, but the experience has introduced more subtle differences than any of the books - even Suas - describe. I still cannot systematically describe them.


I also appreciate your point regarding making a recipe "your own," as a professional. The analogy that comes to my mind is more musical than medical. Classical musicians rarely deviate from a composer's intention, as best they can discern it. There is a place for creativity, at least in classical concerti: the cadenzas. Even with those, there are composed cadenzas - a prime example being Leopold Auer's cadenzas for the great 19th Century violin concertos - that even the great virtuosi use. 


Different cultures: Classical Music vs. Cooking. In cooking, originality is more highly valued. That's as it is. Cooking is more like Jazz, I suppose.


In bread baking, I'm still striving for the depth of understanding that permits me to bake "a cadenza" of my own composition. It should be evident that I'm having a wonderful time on the journey.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

As I said earlier, your real plus+ to TFL and my thread, your time and expertise is very much appreciated. 


Sylvia

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I usually try out recipes first as they are, then I change some things like the amount of sweetener, add bread spices, exchange flours, use sourdough instead of yeast, etc.


I also adjust temperatures or baking times, or the size of the breads until they turn out just as I like them. By then I consider them as my own, inspired by the author of the original recipe.


Karin