The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

100% Rye Sourdough not rising much

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

100% Rye Sourdough not rising much

I did it once.  Haven't done it since.  I'm using Lepard's recipe and it worked a charm once (same flour, same levain), but hasn't worked since.  I am so disappointed.  I even had my oven's thermostat re-calibrated (by a professional--it's a free service).  This is the third time.  I am concerned that the bread crusts over before I put it in the oven.  I spray it well before putting it in, and again after five minutes, but it looks like there's hardly any oven spring!  And what spring there is, is from the bottom, so there is a ridge all along the bottom of the loaf.


Tips?


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

I just did a quick once over. The only things that might trip me up are:



  1. accidentally using 1 tablespoon salt when it calls for 1 teaspoon.

  2. accidentally using a coarse rye flour, as he explicitly calls for a fine rye. Last week I tried to make a Pane di Altamura with coarse semolina durum flour when the recipe called for very fine semolina durum flour, and I had a similar problem: almost no oven-spring. I had no problem with levain or dough fermentation, however.


Other than that, how active was your starter? Could it be time to rebuild from scratch?


MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

Thanks!


The flour is very very fine.  German 1150.  So I don't think that's it.


The starter appeared active both times--there were big bubbles when I scooped it out.


And no, not too much salt.


 


I am more likely to be wrong about the starter, than about anything else, I think, so maybe I should re-build.  Thanks!

Crumbly Baker's picture
Crumbly Baker

FWIW, and not meant as a criticism of Lepard, but since I started using Richard Bertinet's recipe and method of refreshing the leaven I have not looked back at Dan's book for sourdoughs - rye or otherwise.


I therefore highly recommend Richard's.


Sorry not to help you; my ferments from Dans book were very 'holey', and they worked ok, but many loaves flat objects with flying tops, but that's maybe my fault in over-proofing.


However, Richard's are much stiffer doughs, even with high hydration, and the ferment is more compact, creamy-looking, delicious to work with, very satisfying.


Hope you find a solution, as rye is a lovely flour in bread.  Try the walnut fo Dan's too, or Richard's chestnut - out of this world.

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

Thanks.  I am so depressed... it's almost like the top of the loaf cooked and then in order to expand, the dough rose INWARD and compressed the rest of the dough which is now a damp bready dough-mass.  It is hard to explain but there is rise in the levain, I just know it.  But it is trapped for some reason.


Is Bertinet's recipe online?  Maybe I will try Hamelman's rye.  What is so frustrating is that Lepard's worked SO PERFECTLY once.

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

That almost sounds like a problem with your oven.

RonRay's picture
RonRay

I have had the same problems with DL's Sour 100% rye bread. All I have concluded is that it is most likely (in my case, anyway) related to the HL of the starter. One can find his statements a "bit unclear" as to the hydration of it. "But remember that rye flour needs more liquid to reach the same consistency as..." In any even, I will keep trying - for my person satisfaction - to see if I can get the formula to work for me.

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

I thought so but I just had the thermostat re-done.

Crumbly Baker's picture
Crumbly Baker

mmzz


I using his book, 'Crust'.  The thing is, his ferment is refreshed differently to Lepard's.  Bertinet says to take 400g (just an example, ok?) of ferment, and add the same amount of water and double that amount of flour.


What you get is a very dense ferment that you think will come to nothing, but then increases in volume amazingly!  I found Lepard's resulting refreshed ferment to be much more liquid at every stage.


 


You might need to do this a couple of times to get away from the wetter ferment and approximate Bertinet's.  Give it a go perhaps?


Of course, Bertinet's recipes are based on HIS ferment NOT anyone elses, so be careful about transferring one to another, as you might end up with gloop.

Susan Lynn's picture
Susan Lynn

100 per cent rye will never have much oven spring, but it shouldn't be gooey inside. Be careful of the amount of salt ... I made rye sourdough for four years or so and once in awhile had a customer following the Gerstein (sp???) diet ask me to make her a loaf without salt. It actually rose more than the stuff with salt, although the taste was really flat. (She also wanted us to bake it without oiling the pan, so we floured the outside of the dough thoroughly and it released fine.) I always panned my rye, but the artisan baker for whom I'm now working does his free-form. He's been putting them in the oven soomer than before, so perhaps slightly under-proofed, and they are getting more spring. 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

You're much more patient than I am.


I'd have told that client, "Have a bagel instead, won't you?" ;D

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven


100 per cent rye will never have much oven spring... ...a loaf without salt. It actually rose more than the stuff with salt...



Susan Lynn, that sounds like the salted loaves were too underproofed at the time that was observed.  If conditions are perfect it can double and give oven spring.  Salt prolongs the working rising window of 100% rye dough without it, the dough ferments faster. 


I delay adding salt many times to speed up the ferment at 23°C or a lower room temp.


By baking, I find it essential to use a probe thermometer on 100% rye.   I've two, one is a meat thermometer and the other candy, both with metal shafts.  Rye is just beyond chicken at max of  96°C.  Funny, never used it on a chicken.  I will also hang or stand a spring type oven thermometer inside the oven near to the loaf.   It is just so tricky to tell when done.  The crust and outside can look perfectly brown and taps hollow but the inside doughy and wet.


Mini


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for me to take a guess.   What is the ambient temperature of your kitchen and where can I find the recipe?  Drying dough crust sounds overproofed to me.  Did you score it?  What was the internal temp of the loaf before removing from the oven?    Did you take any pictures?  Tell more about the starter.   Is the rye flour old?

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

Thanks, everyone!


These would not make a bagel.  At most, a sushok.  :D


The dough was, if anything, under-proofed.  Kitchen temp, according to thermometer, was around 75 - 78 (it's a nice summer here).  However, it looked *about* double.


Salt... it says 1 tsp.  Perhaps it's the sea salt?  No, recipe says fine sea salt and that's what it is.


I did not score it, and I was too depressed at the time to take a picture.  The inside looked like... you know really moist brownies?  The gummy ones?  Like that.  Only ashen-brown instead of brownie brown.  Only with a hard-ish 1 mm crust and then about 1 - 2 cm or so of bread around it.  The ends looked like bread.


He says to rise it on a floured towel.  In my opinion, that dries out the dough but I don't have a bread pan.  He has another pan rye with caraway.  Perhaps I'll buy a bread pan and try that.  In the meantime I will try scones or something else very easy to make sure the oven's working.


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

I'm going to double down on the oven as cause after hearing this.


Moist, that moist!, it should not be.


You could have had a power outage too, but I imagine you would have noticed it.


-


Also, depending on how many times (and for how long) you opened the oven, you could have dropped the temp way down to 200 F or lower. It's easy to do if you're not quick. Really annoys me when I do it...like when the baguettes are misaligned on the stone and I have to straighten them, losing precious degrees. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Overproofed! 


Looking double would be the maximum lift you would ever get and part of that "double" should be in the oven heat.  Better to be under "double" more like "one and a half" and then into the oven for the rest!  


The good news is...  Shred up the gummy stuff and feed it to your starter.  It will love it!


Mini

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

Mini, the recipe calls for a five-hour proof or "until double".  I just read Hamelman's chapter on rye sourdoughs, and it looks totally different to what Lepard does, which is understandable since (1) the books are written for quite different types of bakers and (2) they have their own implicit techniques that would call for different recipes.


Hamelman does not have a single 100% rye sourdough without anything else in it.  I really want to use more rye.  We like the flavor, it keeps well, and we get enough wheat in our diet already esp. as we like whole-wheat pastas.


I'm thinking of trying Hamelman's 90% three-stage rye sour but he calls for a whole and medium grain rye flour and I only have German rye, 950.  Any idea how that would compare?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The coarser the flour, the harder it is to raise more volume.  The 960 here is quite fine and easiest to aquire in Austria.  (Not sure if 950 and 960 are the same.) I use it all the time.  The last loaves have hemp seeds in them, more fiber, and the crunch is fun.  I had a loaf today that just wanted to get into the oven sooner.  Now I have all afternoon free! I think I'll go saw off a warm piece...


Mini

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

I am using 997 actually and it is VERY fine... it can't be that different from 960, because they go 450, 650, 960, 1150 in wheat flour, so we must be baking with more or less similar flours.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Have you read my blog on 100% rye?  It's under "Mini's favorite 100% Rye"


There are lots of rye tips there.

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

I'm looking it up now.  I'd be surprised if they were very different--I get mine at Edeka.  It's the bio rye flour.  I might try a different one from a local mill, though.

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

I thought it was the oven but I had the thermostat  checked and re-installed recently.  He checked it.  I will check again.  Definitely no power outage :D  The whole house beeps when that happens.

sanchiro's picture
sanchiro

I am mixing up some dough right now, with 20% rye flour added. It seems dry. Should I add more water so it's not so tough and dry? I want to save this batch if I can. I WISH there was some real time forum for immediate answers instead of this and having to wait hours to get feedback.

RonRay's picture
RonRay


Sanchiro, I have resigned myself to maintaining my culture at 200% hydration level (50g dark rye and 100g water) at room temperature with daily feeds. 24 hours before use, I feed with a ratio to bring it to the "best fit" in hydration to match the formula of the loaf. It was the best way to see that I was maintaining an active growth, but I am no expert on rye and doubt I will ever understand rye well.


Hope that is of some help.


zÖÖm Ron


 

MmeZeeZee's picture
MmeZeeZee

Not completely, anyway.  Hamelman's 80% rye worked almost a charm.  Still slightly tough crust (because the freaking top coil apparently only works on the broil setting and manufacturer insists that's how it's SUPPOSED to work) but the crumb is delicious--very flexible, moist, and lovely open holes.


I wish I could remember what I did that first time, but I will do a couple of Hamelman's version with 20% white flour then work down.  I did not feel Hamelman's dough was significantly different than Lepard's in texture, though the rise time was totally different and Hamelman's had yeast added.  That is probably where I got the nice open crumb, LOL.  But still, even without that tiny bit of yeast, it would have cooked all the way through.


I strongly suspect, in retrospect, that it was rising the loaves in the floured towel that dried out the crust pre-bake and prevented it from rising when it really needed to.  I don't remember how I did it he first time but I will try it again without doing that this time and see how it goes (Hamelman's I just rose on my baking sheets).


Thanks much again to everyone... you all are so encouraging!