The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Izzy's New York Rye and Bwraith's Sourdough Bagels

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Anonymous (not verified)

Izzy's New York Rye and Bwraith's Sourdough Bagels

More fun this morning with...


...two 2-lb. loaves of 'Izzy's New York Rye' from Nancy Silverton's 'The Breads of the La Brea Bakery', the same rye I ruined last weekend by over-proofing.


The bottom crusts have the traditional cornmeal crust.


The loaves contain lots of caraway and Charnushka seeds. 


The shine comes from an application of cornstarch-water: boil 1 cup of water in small sauce pan, add 1/2 teaspoon cornstarch, dissolve, bring to boil, remove loaves from oven, apply immediately with pastry brush, but not too much, else the crust will become soggy. The application should be very quick, the loaves still steaming.


And...


....a dozen or so sourdough bagels from Bwraith's 'Sourdough Bagels Revisited' 


wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Apologies for the poor video camera. It's ancient. 

copyu's picture
copyu

= Nigella sativa, the seed with WAY too many names (some of them quite stupid, IMHO) Just posting this for everyone's information...


I hadn't heard this name before, but I like it! "Charnushka"


I went to an Indian grocery and tried three different names for it...he shrugged at the Indian names. When I said that people also called it "black cumin", he moved his hand a few centimeters and said, "Black cumin? Right here, sir!"


Best,


copyu


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

 


That's what it says on the bag too:


Nigella sativa. The tiny, black, smoky flavored seeds found atop Jewish rye bread in New York, also a major addition to Salvic sausages. Used in Armenia, Lebanon, Israel, and parts of India. Charnushka is used heavily in garam masala.


Charnushka has many names: Also referred to as Kalonji, Russian or black caraway. Sometimes Charnushka is confused in translation with black cumin, which is a very different spice.


 

copyu's picture
copyu

Really nice job, there. It made me hungry. Thanks for the link.


I've never made bagels before, but my first ones are going to be sourdough for sure!


Thank you very much,


copyu

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Thanks! 


Bagels are one of those breads that, after making it, you ask yourself: Why'd I wait so long to make these? They're so simple!


I started with Jeffery Hamelman's recipe, which has all the technical details, and then tried others like Bwraith's. His is missing a fermentation step that, I think, would cause making them to fail (if I didn't know it was missing).

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

...but still good.


His recipe calls for 186g of KA First Clear or a substitute of whole wheat, rye, etc.


I used 93 whole wheat/93 light rye.


I think it's a good, but not a great, bagel.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

My first bake of "Izzy's NY Rye" a la Silverton:

I followed the recipe pretty much as written, except I added additional rye flour (maybe an ounce or two) to the sourdough builds on days 2 and 3.  Her hydration was nearly 200% and it was so soupy, so I brought it down to about 175%.  I found it amazingly easy to shape (free-form as she instructed) for such a high percentage of rye.  I used whole rye for the sourdough builds and light rye for the dough, as she indicated.  Didn't (yet) have calonji (chernushka) seeds, so I used ground caraway for the dough and some whole caraway for the crust.  Silverton's directions for the cornstarch glaze were excellent.

Pictured:  final proof; the crust cracking "like old porcelain" as it cooled (her words); the crumb.

     

The loaf after final proofing was surprisingly solid enough to handle and to dip first into water and then polenta, each in 8" x 8" pans placed side by side.  Rather than poking a wet finger into the middle of the loaf before baking, I docked it with a wooden skewer.  I was concerned about deflating the loaf, and my method worked just fine.

The final test was, of course, the eating.  Just from looking at the loaf, I anticipated something outstanding, a nice, tangy New York deli rye.  But, even though a picture is worth 1000 words, the appearance in this case was deceptive.  The loaf tasted "flat," no real tang, a let-down for sure.  I keep wondering if the high hydration of two full days of sourdough building created a mild flavor, more "lactic" than "acetic."  Comments welcomed!

Joy

 

suave's picture
suave

Her hydration is messed up.  In reality her sour is about 65%.

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

mine wasn't as good looking. Your crackly crust is outstanding.  Agree with your comments about the lack of tangy flavor. Much more like the lighter Jewish Rye than the bread that I expected from the color. Not that they weren't good, but this one and the Pullman bread are the only ones from her book that I only made once. Many times made the Rosemary and the Olive breads with my regular (mature) starter and only one feeding after taking out of the refrigerator. Family likes a combination of the Rosemary Olive Oil and the Olive bread best of all.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

I wonder, suave, did you correct the hydration of the sour or if you just figured out a proper percentage?  Thanks.

Interesting that you had the same result in flavor, gmabaking.  The rosemary and olive oil bread looks promising and I'll give it a try.  It's a popular combination at the Della Fattoria Bakery in Petaluma.  Does the one-time build after refrigeration of the sourdough give you the desired flavor?  --Joy 

suave's picture
suave

Both.  When I looked at the feeding schedule for the rye sour she gives, I could not help but to be taken aback - because you've seen it and it's just nuts.   I added it all up and it came to ~200%, not exactly unheard of, 1. but it would give too high a hydration to my dough, and 2. she has a photo of rye sour in the book and 200% it is not.   So I set reasonable hydration to my dough, calculated back and came up with 65-70% hydration for the sour.  Set it to 67%, and it worked like a charm.

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

So from what you say, I gather your rye achieved good flavor as well as all the other fine attributes of that bread.   I didn't calculate hydration percentages, just went by the feel of the starter.  But I'm sure mine was at least 150%, which was still too high, again I attribute the lack of flavor to that.  In some of the deli ryes, the hydration varies from the first build to the second and the third.  Sounds like you were consistent at 67%.  I am going to give it another try.  I noted that the crumb of my rye was rather dense and fine.  With lower hydration of starter, I wonder how the crumb will turn out.  I will just have to bake it again and see! --Joy 

suave's picture
suave

I tried it on one of her other ryes, so I can not comment on flavor, but in my experience liquid rye starters work just as well as stiff ones, at least in high % rye breads. 

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

for your reply.  Guess the question is "how liquid"!

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

I didn't notice the lack of tangy flavor in the one time builds but that could well have been the Kalamata olives. I used the Rosemary Olive Oil recipe and added in the olives. Probably made it twice that way before I noticed the recipes are the same except for lower salt in the olive one. No source for the oil-cured olives so I use some well drained black or green chopped fairly small.

I made the Country White over and over until I was familiar with the process. That makes me think that I didn't venture out into the one time builds until after that. I would still only resort to that if time just wouldn't work for the lengthy builds. Tedious, but well worth it. You've inspired me to get out the starter and feed it today and tomorrow before baking that olive bread!
Barbra

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

I agree with you that baking a formula you like over and over until it seems right is eminently worthwhile.  Having said that, I've been baking Hamelman's pain au levain with mixed starters for a couple of years pretty regularly and all of a sudden it's been lacking in flavor.  I've been trying to trace it to the starter (feeding two starters twice a day for nearly a week)--or--maybe the bulk whole rye I've been buying at Whole Foods has changed in quality.  It looks the same, but there may be other factors.  When it runs out, I'm going to buy medium and whole ryes from Central Milling, as well as some artisan and whole wheat flours.  Hopefully that will give the bread a "shot in the (proverbial) arm."  Me too!

Good luck with your starter and your olive bread.  Glad to be an inspiration.  Now, Barbra, you've inspired me to bake an olive bread again (used to bake that all the time--even an olive fougasse, which was divine)--it's been too long! --Joy

joyfulbaker's picture
joyfulbaker

wwiiggggiin--still there?  I was wondering what you did with the rye starter for Izzy's rye--did you leave it at the 170% hydration as in the recipe?  I wanted to give it another try.  I'm trying to track down the author and any errata sheet that might be available for the La Brea bread book.

Joy