The Fresh Loaf

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Boule "explodes"/"herniates" during baking?

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foodslut's picture
foodslut

Boule "explodes"/"herniates" during baking?

Baked a batch of my fave rye today using this formula (PDF) - poolish proof for ~ 20 hours, followed by mix/autolyse/knead and second proof overnight in fridge, then shape & proof in banneton for another hour before baking at 400F for ~50 minutes (internal temp to 200F).


I did a square slash on top of the banneton boule, and here's how it came out of the oven:




This happens from time to time, but NEVER as bad as this.


So, is this a shaping issue?  Is this a slashing issue?  Is it something else entirely?


Thanks, in advance, for any advice shared.

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

My guess is that it's a combination of (a) excessive skin tension caused by over-shaping the boule (too much skin tension) + (b) scoring too deeply and/or too great an angle (70 degrees to horizontal rather than the usual 45 degrees).


You probably put it in the oven at the proofing zenith too; any later and it likely would have collapsed.

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Rye bread, being as annoying as it is delicious, makes me doubt the above logic.


Rye does just about whatever it wants to, at least from my experience.


I ruined two 2-pounders of Izzy's New York Rye last weekend, doing nothing incorrectly. The result was two, enormous, rye, slipper breads with crumbs so dense, a chainsaw would have refused their slicing.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

What I see here is a lot of activity that didn't want to quit.


I'll say that the percentage of the poolish looks way to high. I looked at the formula and it looks like the poolish is 69% of the total flour. I usually use a number closer to 25% for any preferment. With the sugar and improver (what ever that is) there is so much food for the yeasts. And 3.77g yeast in the poolish is a huge amount.


Try cutting the poolish flour back to 25% of the total flour and use 1/4 tsp of yeast. Everything else looks in range.


Eric

foodslut's picture
foodslut

.... is a pre-mix supplement I buy from KAF.  I know it's cheating a bit, but I like the taste.


Based on the input I've received here, I'm going to try this formula (PDF) next time I try this recipe - I'll let you all know how it comes out.


Thanks, once more, for the ideas.


 

caraway's picture
caraway

What was the crumb like?  If it was nice and light and airy I'd speculate that it was just underproofed a bunch.  If it was coarse and holey I'd have to agree with too much leavening in as a percentage.  You don't suppose someone (inadvertantly, I'm sure) helped you out with a yeast addition, do you?  Just a thought...


Sue

foodslut's picture
foodslut

Crumb ended up fine and soft (like it usually does for the recipe).

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Underproofed?  Could use a longer bulk rise? 


It is a wheat bread with 30% rye. 


Mini

foodslut's picture
foodslut

A weird development - second boule, same batch, same technique, came out OK.  The oven's temp is spot on between batches, so I'm guessing it's more the shaping than the formula.


Thanks LOADS for all the feedback - I knew I'd get some response, but I'm impressed with the detail, and so quickly.  Very much appreciated.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

One was degassed more than the other...   Or maybe the top and bottom sides of the loaf got reversed in the shaping turmoil.   I know that that may sound silly to some, but when playing with just a few loaves, and thinking about other things...  it can happen.  What does the bottom of the loaf say?  How does it compare to the other?


Rye improver for 30% rye?  Interesting...   Contains malt and vit C & other stuff.  How much of an improvement do you see using it? 


Mini

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

I tried one of those improvers for no-knead bread once.


A friend said, "Wow! It actually tastes like something this time. It almost tastes like real bread."


;(


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi foodslut,


I think Eric has addressed most of the key issues you need to look at, above, but here are the areas which I would look at:


I don't think it is a shaping issue.   I realise this is the extreme scenario you have shown in the photo, and if it is your fave, then clearly you have had much success along the way.


The trouble I have is that I see several flaws in the formula you attached.


Eric is totally right about the amount of pre-fermented flour.   His advice to move to 25% pre-fermented flour is extremely sound, and I would urge you to adopt it.   Again, the amount of yeast in the poolish is way too high.   I'm not the best expert to advise on dried yeast of any kind, as I really never use it.   However, for a Poolish of 20 hours, at this high level in the formula, I would use fresh yeast at about 0.2% of the total flour in the formula.   For instant yeast, you could safely say that figure would fall below 0.1%.   You need to do the maths here.


There are other problems which I would point you to, as well.   You have sugar in the formula, and an improver.   I am not going to advise you to leave these out and dismiss use of additives etc. that is your choice.   I don't use them personally at home, but I have years of commercial experience adding these materials, and I do know how they work....and they do work!   The trouble I'm seeing is that you are mixing 2 incompatible breadmaking processes here.   Using improvers, sugar and high levels of yeast will encourage a mass of fermenting activity and dough rheology.   But at the same time you are trying to slow things down by retarding the dough.   To me this is the crux of why you see such an outburst.   All that mass of activity has been held back using the fridge.   It really is an explosion waiting to happen.


So, if you want to use improvers and conditioners, you should cut out the long fermentation techniques you are using.   The 2 processes are incompatible and you are opening yourself up for a lot of problems...now and in the future.


I hope this helps you to find better ways of making what looks like it could be a lovely loaf of bread.


Best wishes


Andy

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

I sit pat on the shaping and scoring, going for Occum's Razor instead of more complicating variables.


Here's a Sourdough Sunflower Semolina, over-shaped and over-scored, that did a foodslutaboom. It's a dough I know well, so I'm sure it's not under-/over-proofed, etc/. Boom, here at least, is a scoring/shaping problem.



1. Boom.



2. Boom on left (it exploded in one direction due to bad reverse-C scoring) and no boom on right. 



3. Boom



4. Boom

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The contrast!  :)

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Deleted by user.

foodslut's picture
foodslut

Added a bit less "yeast food", tightened the boule a bit less, and cut back on the poolish, and the results are WAY better:



Thanks, all, for your advice - very much appreciated!

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Final formula?


Thanks.

foodslut's picture
foodslut

Here's the new formula (PDF).


In future iterations, I'll also be focussing on longer, slower fermentation.