The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Stand mixer query

copyu's picture
copyu

Stand mixer query

Large mixers are very rare in Japan. None are offered in the major electrical goods shops, probably because kitchen space is at a premium. I saw a 'DeLonghi' in CostCo, once, [about $250] and recently came across the 'Bosch Compact' [about $400] in a baking supply store. That's it! CostCo Japan hasn't stocked any large mixers for the past 8  to 12 months
There are some glowing reviews, on-line, of the Bosch Compact, but they refer to a 400W machine. The one I'm looking at has virtually identical specifications and accessories, apart from the wattage. It's clearly labelled as 270W. This sounds a bit low, to me...

At near $400, I'm wondering if a purchase is going to be 'money out the window'. Does anyone have an "engineering" explanation, or some other reason, why a "400W" machine would be rated at 270W in Japan? Is it possibly a different standard in the way they calculate a machine's wattage here? (We get a very steady 100VAC from out power outlets, at 50 or 60Hz, depending on region) 


I'm a bit of a 'gambler', sometimes, but $400 is NOT 'chicken-feed' in this household. I usually make only a few of loaves at a time, baking once or twice a week. If you think it would be a crazy purchase, please chime in. Your input would be appreciated!


Best,


copyu

008cats's picture
008cats

This part is a guess: the higher wattage would serve for heavier (stiff dough) or longer mixing. But I don't think it is  an  absolute; it depends on the design of the machine how well power is put into action. Some people complain about machines getting too warm and affecting dough temp. Consider what this means for your type of doughs.


Just my opinion - I have very limited space - about 4 sq. feet - and if you are going to be hauling a mixer in and out of a cupboard, you really don't want a super heavy one. O.K., you're a guy, and prolly younger than me, but unless you use it all the time, you are not  going to want it on you working space!

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

volts x amps = watts


a 400 watt machine on 110 v draws 3.6 amps


a 400 watt machine on 220 v draws 1.8 amps


watts is a measure of "power" - I'd pass over a 270 watt stand mixer without a first, much less second thought - unless the store is paying you to take it home.


watts = power is as pointed out a metric of the electric motor - all the mechanics involved in getting the electrons through the motor gears hook beater etc into the dough can drastically affect how much of the electric motor power gets delivered to the dough - but unfortunately there is no 'published/consumer/nameplate data' that will give you that info.


 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi Copyu,


Did you get a chance to examine that Bosch close up?  I'm quite puzzled because the Bosch compact stand mixer I have is rated at 400 watts (mine is called the "kitchen machine" because it came with assorted attachments - which I never use).



(The above photo was taken with the mixer head down)


I searched around and came across a 300 watt Bosch hand/stand mixer, but it's not the compact.


Would you have a chance to examine the plate on the bottom of the Bosch Compact being offered for sale to see the model number, etc?  If so, it should be similar to this:



It may well be that the wattage rating is different in Japan; do you know of any electricians who could confirm that?


Bosch discontinued making the compact mixer some time ago - which I think was a foolhardy decision given that it is selling for upwards of $250 on the Internet (if you can find one), when the original purchase price was about $100.


I don't think you would be making a crazy purchase if the mixer available to  you there is indeed the Bosch Compact.  It is a terrfic and very powerful little stand mixer.


Perhaps you could try it out?  Mix a 58 percent hydration dough for about six minutes.  If it's the same mixer, the motor head will become barely warm and the dough hook will easily work the dough.   If it struggles and heats up, then return it and get your money back.


I hope it works out for you!

amauer's picture
amauer

I suppose shipping from US or UK would be out of this world?

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

That's what I was wondering to. Wouldn't it be better to get a mixer DHL'ed to Japan from an international dealer than settle for what little is available locally?


 

copyu's picture
copyu

Here's a link to the store and the model I was looking at, but it's all in Japanese:


http://www.tomizawa.co.jp/webshop/commodity_param/ctc/+/shc/0/grp/005360/cmc/00536000/backURL/https%28++www.tomizawa.co.jp+webshop+main/detail.html


I wasn't able to lift the machine up, in the store, due to lack of space, but it had 'BOSCH Compact' 270W printed on the front and the same info is given in the link.


I have bought a number of electrical products from the USA and they work very well here. The main problem is that the Bosch Compact has been discontinued for some reason. (Another problem is finding companies in the US that are willing to deal with non-US customers. It's surprisingly common!)


I'm fairly happy to do a single loaf (or two) of bread by hand. However, I was hoping to do more pastries, cookies and even Chinese noodle dough...some reviewers compared the 400W Bosch very favorably with the 600W KA mixer, but I think I might be 'pushing my luck' at 270W...


Thank you all for your valuable insights


copyu


 


 


 


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

With a mixer, the very last thing you want to do is by one that's been discontinued (or one you can't get serviced). I'm guessing you're going for the good deal, but mixers break, a lot, and most especially when making bread with them.


I had a brief look at Amazon Japan. They have lots of mixers, like small Kitchenaids, but the prices aren't so great. 

berryblondeboys's picture
berryblondeboys

Good mixers do not break a lot. I haven't heard mumblings about anything from Bosch and Electrolux concerning breakdowns - KAs yes, cheapos yes, but not these two brands.. And discontinued, does not mean a voided warranty if you buy it from the store. It would be quite another thing if Bosch had gone out of business, but we all know that's not happening.


 


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

All mixers break (even Hobart).


Small ones (especially when used to knead bread) break a lot. In fact, most small ones won't even honor the warranty if used to knead bread.


Even very large professional ones, like the 20 quart I use, are specific about flour weights, hydration, and temperature when kneading bread, to the point that you void your warranty if you exceed specification. (And they see so many broken ones that they can tell just by inspecting the damage if you were mixing in spec).


 

berryblondeboys's picture
berryblondeboys

Yes, all appliances will break eventually, but if you use it properly, it should not break within the warranty period. And even on the Bosch sites they say it can mix whole wheat dough.


And, of course, if not used properly, warranties are voided. But this would not have a voided warranty if it's sold from a store.

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Here's a similar (same?) model from Amazon.com Japan.


It's ¥38999 or $456 + free shipping.


It also says 270 watts.


I'm inclined to think that, in this compact form factor, it 270 watts is to be expected. 400 W would be something you might find in a larger mixer, like a standard Kitchenaid. This might not be the mixer in the online reviews, but a compact version thereof.

berryblondeboys's picture
berryblondeboys

You know what I would do? I would contact Bosch and ask about the mixer sold to Japan. MAYBE it's that in Japan they don't list maximum power it can use (watts), but standard at regular speed with regular/standard load.

berryblondeboys's picture
berryblondeboys

Just did a little digging. I think we are trying to compare apples to apples, but we can't. We are really comparing watermelons (American appliances) to apples.


Seems Japan is requiring manufacturers to make their appliances more energy efficient. So 'maybe' the 270 watts there is as powerful as the 400 watts here because they've asked Bosch to make their mixers run more efficiently? Might the reason for the higher price? Less made, lower demand, higher the cost per unit to make for Bosch. Just an idea.


Here's a blip of an article I found in a couple of places:


 


"But this is not the end of the efficiency trail, since advancing technology keeps raising the potential. Japan’s Top Runner Program is the world’s most dynamic system for upgrading appliance efficiency standards. In this system, the most efficient appliances marketed today set the standard for those sold tomorrow. Using this program, between the late 1990s and the end of 2007 Japan raised efficiency standards for individual appliances by anywhere from 15 to 83 percent, depending on the appliance. This is an ongoing process that continually exploits advances in efficiency technologies. A 2008 report indicates that the Top Runner Program for all appliances is running ahead of the ambitious initial expectations—and often by a wide margin."


 

dscheidt's picture
dscheidt

Looking at input power ratings, which is what any mixer that expresses its power rating in watts has, is pretty meaningless.  What you're interested in is *output* power.  That's available for commercial equipment, but almost never for household stuff.  With household equipment, the assumption is that consumers are uneducated, and will think that "high input = high output".  It doesn't, particularly since the number that's put on the label in the US (and most places; I don't know about Japan) is the peak draw, usually at motor start, and not a continous rating, and its an instantous number.  Turn the machine on, and it does indeed draw that, but for a very small fraction of a second.  So there's reason to use an ineffecient motor, and one with a huge stall or starting current draw, which will let them put "1000 Watts!" on the box. If that were a real, continous rating, and assuming a normally efficient electric motor, it would be over a 1 HP motor (1 HP is 750 W.).


Consider Hobart's HL200 mixer.  This is a  commercial 20 qt mixer, which Hobart claims is capable of handling 15 lbs of heavy bread dough.  It's equiped with a 1/2 HP motor.  That's 1/2 HP, 375 W, output, of course, not input.  Input wattage isn't specified, but input current is.  For the 120 V version, it's 8 ampres.  That's 960 W, and is a peak number, not the running number.  That's likely to be the stall current draw of the motor -- what the motor draws when it's jammed and can't rotate, and not the starting current, which would be higher.

copyu's picture
copyu

...it makes me wonder, though, why some manufacturers make such a point of bringing the wattage to our attention, as in the case of the Bosch mixers


I remember the days when mini-audio combos proudly boasted 100W output. [<p.m.p.o.> in small letters followed. The fine print explained it was 'peak music power output...'] The stereo amplifiers were pretty standard 20W RMS per channel, if you were very lucky...I suppose if you used the chunkiest 4-ohm PA speakers you had access to and cranked it up to maximum...power dissipation would go close to 70-80W. Hehehe!


What's bothering me, even more, since I've had the time to do quite a bit of mixer research over the past couple of days, is the "duty cycle" of modern mixers...10min continuous for the Japanese version of the Bosch Compact...15min for all the KitchenAids I've seen. (I'm talking only about mixers under about $600...not the "professional" gear)


I'd rarely need to use a mixer for more than 7min, but worried about some noodle doughs that require 15-20 minutes of continuous processing. I'm wondering how many minutes one waits between mixes? (10 on, 10 off, 10 on? Or is it more like 10 on, 60 off, 10 on?)


I've decided that there's only one choice for a brand-new mixer for a bread baker and that seems to be the Electrolux DLX...the only other choice is a vintage KitchenAid made by Hobart. I'm not reassured by anything I've read that the Japanese Bosch Compact is actually worth the money...If I'm wrong, I'd like to know!


Cheers,


copyu 

dscheidt's picture
dscheidt


...it makes me wonder, though, why some manufacturers make such a point of bringing the wattage to our attention, as in the case of the Bosch mixers



Same reason vacuum cleaners shout "21 amps!", but come with 5-15P 15 amp plug. It's an easy to supply number, advertising has conditioned most consumers to blindly accept "bigger must be better", and supplying a meaningful number is harder, would require educating the customer, and would let the customer figure out what the inferior products are. Commercial and industrial buyers aren't willing to put up with that, so there are real numbers for many things. I can't answer your question about mixer duty cycles. None of the KA manuals I've seen mention one.

copyu's picture
copyu

I do remember searching amazon.co.jp for mixers many months ago...I think I was searching using specific makes and models (probably recommendations from TFL...) I also remember just raising my eyebrows at the prices and navigating away from those pages


There's such a lot of collective wisdom on this site! I'm very grateful to all who are helping me to 'get my thoughts in order' on this mixer issue


I have to travel abroad in the next couple of weeks, so will not be making a hasty decision. I'll feed back if/when I make a purchase (perhaps in September?)


As always, thank you to everyone for your valuable time in replying to my query


Best wishes,


copyu

copyu's picture
copyu

The highest wattage, even for KA and DeLonghi mixers in Japan, seems to 'top out' at 300W.


On the US amazon.com site, I noticed a lot of the much heavier and larger mixers, with double the bowl volume, [5qt/6 liters] are also rated at 300-325W.


I wonder what reviews I was reading, before. I didn't see any 600W mixers for sale today


Suddenly, a 270W Bosch Compact, at a bowl size of about 3 liters, doesn't sound so 'underpowered' after all...the Japanese prices, however, are very 'over-powered'...but we're getting used to that, slowly...


Cheers,


copyu

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

I could ship you a mixer from Denver that (with the $250 in DHL shipping) would still be cheaper than the one's on Amazon.com Japan.


If you know someone in California, it would probably be even cheaper for them to ship to you than buying in Japan. 

copyu's picture
copyu

That is so kind of you to offer such a thing! However, I have a good buddy in California, one in Chicago (both ex-Japan) and a Japanese friend who frequently visits his family in SF, who would certainly do that for me. Still, your offer is very much appreciated.    


[Aside: 'PayPal' won't allow me to send money outside of Japan as the result of a government decision that became law in March 2010. I can BUY stuff with PayPal, myself—I just can't send anyone the cash if they buy for me! Also, there are virtually no 'money orders' or 'check accounts' in Japan...it's a fairly nice place, but also a slightly "crazy" place for westerners...]


Thank you very much for your kindness,


copyu


 

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

How strange!


Well, best of luck then.


It's worth the effort finding a good mixer. You can make a lot of progress without one, but it so exhausting (and messy!) doing it by hand all the time.

wwiiggggiinnss's picture
wwiiggggiinnss (not verified)

Also, you might be able to buy a mixer wherever you're going internationally and take it back with you. Airlines have seen stranger things. :)

copyu's picture
copyu

but they're all 220-240V countries. I'll definitely be checking if they have any duty-free "American" models for tourists, though


Thanks for the idea, anyway!


Cheers,


copyu

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi Copyu,


Why not ask Bosch about the wattage difference?  http://www.bosch-home.com/us/bosch/customer-care/contact-us.html


It took me about a year of searching around the Internet before I found a (new)  Bosch Compact for sale.  Not long after that, a Canadian TFL member wrote about finding a supply of the Compacts on sale for under $100 each at a local store.  I only wish I could have driven to Canada and bought them all for resale.


BTW, that wattage info you are reading is the input wattage - not the output wattage or any reflection of the power of the mixer.  Ciril Hitz writes to never buy a mixer because of its advertised wattage, since that's a marketing gimmick.

copyu's picture
copyu

As for contacting Bosch, I might just do that...their answer would be interesting to read, at any rate!


I also liked the Ciril Hitz advice—I'm an electronics and woodwork hobbyist, as well as an amateur baker, so I'm all too familiar with the 'marketing ploys' of those who sell electronic devices and products with electric motors


If I get an answer from Bosch I'll post it here


Thank you very much,


copyu

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

here's the 'translation' of that page


===================================


The kitchen machine of the German origin where the mixer and the hood processor become as one unit. Don't you think? it is dense, beating churning is possible at these 1 units.

Pan and partner of candy making. Also the seed of [hanbagu] and the 餃 child is tempered. Operation and care are simple with cleanliness simple structure.
Details     * Commodity set contents:
Don't you think? the substance and the mixing bowl (the resistance degree of cool temperature degree of −20, 120 degrees in heatproof temperature), the churning vessel and the beating vessel, it is dense, the hook, the hook adjuster and the cover for scattering prevention

* Size weight W215×D245×H265mm 2.7kg
* Mixing smallest input
1 egg whites, pan cloth 100g, raw cream 50cc
* Mixing maximum input
Pan cloth 1000g
* Length 1.5m of cord/code
* Voltage frequency electric power consumption AC-100V 50-60Hz 270W
* Rated time 10 minutes
* Capacity mixing bowl 3.0L
* Material itself: ABS mixing bowl: Polypropylene
* Country of origin [surobenia]
* Rpm mixing (axis) 60-370, (drive section) 20-120
* Guarantee period (equipment itself object) 1 years than our company purchase day
========================================


not so sure it'd go too far in the candy making world with a plastic bowl rated at 120C/248F


note also "rated time" - ten minutes continuous use??? dunno.


max mixing of 1000g of cloth; perhaps it doubles as a washing machine? (g)


apparently the "Bosch Compact Mixer" of similar design for the US market has been discontinued.  you may see it pictured with metal or plastic bowls, 400 or 450 watts....


 

copyu's picture
copyu

Thanks, Dillbert, for the 'translation'. I got quite a few smiles and laughs from that!


Actually, my Japanese reading and translation skill might not be fantastic, but it's a lot better than those online translators—just not as funny!


When it's really important (ie, potentially dangerous) and I simply can't work out what it says, I consult my Japanese wife. It's not often necessary (or even very useful) with 'technical' stuff...My wife is definitely not a 'geek' whereas I'm what they call a bit of an 'Otaku' in Japanese ;-)


Cheers,


copyu 

annirramm's picture
annirramm

Hi All,


I live in NYC and I would really would love to buy new Bosch Compact, I searched online for days, but cannot find it. Everywhere it says discontinued, does anyone know where I can get it? Please help.


Thanks,


Aniram

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi Aniram,


Sorry to say that the Bosch Compact stand mixer is no longer in production.


You'll have to keep searching the Internet because they do show up.   I found mine on Amazon through a private seller who had a couple of new ones - but it took me over a year to find it.


There is one for sale at the UK eBay site - but that doesn't do you much good.


Good luck!

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

Just to jump in here late, Dilbert came close on the power issue.  If the machine is rated 400W @ 120V, at 100V it would be only 277W.  Power is proportional to the square of the voltage.  I'm assuming they haven't felt it necessary to use a motor rated 400W @ 100V.  227W is still (almost) a 1/3 horsepower. That's really a lot of power when delivered correctly. A one horsepower horse can pull a plow or a laden wagon.


cheers,


gary