The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Milk bread failing to rise

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Weedyapl's picture
Weedyapl

Milk bread failing to rise

Hi all,


For some reason in my bread machine any milk bread reciepes fail to rise i have tried 2-3 now and all give the same result - even the recipe in my bread machine instruction book. I can make a great loaf with milk powder and water. First attempt i thought may have failed as the milk may have been slightly to warm after scalding and cooling. So on second attempt though i ensured it was luke warm - but this receipe had butter in it (instead of oil). Still no rise. The dough is rising about 1/4 of my milk powder bread.


I see lots of milk bread receipes and no one states this as a problem, some say to scald some say no need... 


We tend to buy long life milk for convience factor could this be the cause? Although the milk powder is also long life as well?


The bread i make with milk powder is great and the crumb is great for toast just not sandwiches. All the sandwich bread reciepes seem to be liquid milk ones...


Aidan


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Aidan,


My best advice is to carry on using milk powder in all your bread machine recipes.   If using powder works, and you have had failures with fresh milk, surely the best action is to stick with the successes?


Best wishes


Andy

Weedyapl's picture
Weedyapl

Hi thanks everyone for replies what an awesome forum.


First time i scalded heated it to about 85c then let it cool down did by look and feel.


Second time didn't really scald as much as warm the milk until to melt butter. Both same temps as my water - i test by touch for luke warm (never fails with bread with water)


Recipe (i have tried others as well from this site):


310ml full cream milk scalded


3tsp oil


1 1/2 tsp salt


1 1/2 tbl sugar


3 cups of bread flour


3/4 tsp improver


1 1/2 tsp yeast


I use french bread setting as it makes the bread really crunchy.


1st knead 2 mins


2nd knead 28 mins


1st rise 20 mins (looks like it doesn't rise more then 5-10% if at all - looks more like butter/sugar cake mix not sure why?)


punch down 15 secs


2nd rise 50 mins (looks like nothing happens)


punch down 10 secs


3rd rise 65 mins (still fails to rise)


Bake time 65 mins


Its like the milk is completely killing my yeast. The milk powder bread on same setting fills the entire cook bay this only fills up the tray 1/3 of the way (no rise). I live in cold cold Melbourne but i made a nice milk powder loaf on weekend and it was awesome even put in more milk powder then normal.


Next time i might try with real milk - i have a funny feeling something is in this milk that is killing the yeast - cant be good for my guts either :P


 


 


 


 

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

at the Giant (food chain).  It was in the Mexican food section. Tastes great and mixes well. 


 

Ford's picture
Ford

I note that you are scalding your milk.  That should denature the protease that might destroy the gluten and cause the rising failure.  To what temperature are you scalding?  I go to 190°F (88°C) for one minute and then cool to 80°F (27°C).  (You are using a thermometer, not just going by feel?)


But, your powdered milk works and that probably still has the protease.  It is a puzzlement!  Sorry, I was thinking in print.  Guess I'm not much help.


Ford


 

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

scald grocery-store bought milk anymore because of the various processes the milk already goes through.

Ford's picture
Ford

Think the Pastuerization process does not reach the scalding remperature, and the milk still contains the active protease.  Debra Wink can answer this.


Ford


 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12076/why-milk-powder-milk-bread-and-not-just-milk#comment-68568


"...Typical pasteurized milk is raised to 161 F, and it DOES NOT accomplish both goals.  As I mentioned above, that temperature will not denature glutathione.  It only kills microbes.  You must either scald milk to denature the protein fragment (which is not alive), or you must use high-heat dried milk, which is held at 190 degrees F for 30 minutes before it is dried and powdered...


... Cook's Illustrated magazine also did their own test, as they were skeptical of scalding having any noticeable effects.  Surprise! The loaves with scalded (and then cooled) milk rose significantly higher, every time.


That doesn't mean you absolutely must scald milk for yeast breads -- it just means there will be some difference.  Whether or not that matters is up to the baker..."

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

very interesting - thank you.


anna

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

And what type is it?  Could be overproofing is the problem, cut back on the yeast and see what happens.  If you are using 2 teaspoons, try one.  I suspect the milk is not the problem but the variety of temperatures are a contributing factor.  I see no mention of how long the dough cycle lasts or what your local temperatures are like.   Can you observe the dough while in the machine?  Does it bulk rise and then fail to rise a second time?  Can you smell yeast aromas during the process?


More info is needed, please.


Mini

ananda's picture
ananda

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/12076/why-milk-powder-milk-bread-and-not-just-milk


Hi,


I've posted the link above to what developed into one of the best discussion threads I have read on TFL....And, yes, Debra Wink is unsurprisingly at the centre of it.   Fantastic stuff!


But I'm still left asking myself why would you want to switch to fresh milk Aidan, when you have said that using powdered milk works well?


Baking is complicated enough, without deliberately, and unecessarily making it even more so.


Please read and digest all Debra Wink and others have to say here, but why anyone wants to offer different advice here, other than sticking with what works, is quite beyond me.


BW


Andy

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Sorry you did not get it. However, if you noticed, the post was in reply, to a specific post, of someone who posted about a specific issue.


She seemed to get it. 


BW


mrfrost

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi mrfrost,


I fully understand both posts!   And the scalding milk issues.


What I don't get is why Aidan is being couselled to use anything other than milk powder!


Best wishes


Andy

jannrn's picture
jannrn

Personally, I don't take the time to scald my milk and have had WONDERFUL rises out of my bread machine...so much so that I don't even use the kitchenaid anymore to mix it! I heat my milk in the microwave for about a minute (for 1 cup) and it works wonderfully! I usually have my butter and honey (or sugar) already in the pan so when I pour the milk over it, the milk melts (or softens) the butter and in case the milk is a little warm, the butter cools it a bit. Give that a try Aiden. If you don't mind, send me the recipe you are using (in a private message) so we don't take up the thread. If you like, I will send you mine. Does your recipe have wheat gluten in it? And what part of the country are you living in? I have had a devil of a time with my breads rising in south Florida!! I am so used to much higher than sea level! Good luck!


Janet

Weedyapl's picture
Weedyapl

I replied to the second post instead of down here if you are looking for answers to all the questions asked.


Appreciate your help btw.


I'm on the search for that fluffy white and soft sandwich (bakery) bread that still eludes me, my milk powder bread is awesome but is a tad to dense for sandwich bread e.g. tends to break apart too easily. Makes the best toast ive ever had though.


The two bakeries near me tend to use corn flour and soya flour in their breads but i heard those can impact on rise but i bought some corn flour to try. Cant find soya flour at any supermarket probably need to go to a health store.


I like challenges and am some what of a perfectionist and i think the bread bug has bitten me well and truly.


Once i conquer it i will start on wholemeal bread and maybe even artisan bread.