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Sourdough not rising.. SOS!!!!

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Mebake's picture
Mebake

Sourdough not rising.. SOS!!!!

Though i made plenty of sourdough breads, i am having a hard time getting whole wheat levain from hamelman's bread to rise.


My starter was in full vigor when i made the levain, and levain rose nicely. its only when i mixed the levain into a final dough and retarded it immidietly in a 45 F refrig.. for 7 hours, that the dough is refusing to rise, even after 7.5 hrs out of fridge and in a warm place.


WHAT COULD BE WRONG? AND WHAT SHALL I DO WITH THE DOUGH, ITS GETTING LATE NOW, AND I EVENTUALLY HAVE TO GO TO SLEEP..


anyone? that is my third failure with levain breads done according t recipes of hamelman.


Mebake

Ford's picture
Ford

I am trying to find the recipe in Hamelman's "Bread", but I cannot find a reference to one that retards the dough.  I have looked in several of his recipes containing whole-wheat flour.  However, I know of no reason for the retarding having a deleterious effect on the bread.  I suggest you read page 151, "Final Fermentation".  Perhaps that will give you a clue.  I am sorry I cannot be of more help from the information I have.


Ford

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

rise.  Then you can bake in a couple of hours. 


Mini

wally's picture
wally

I suspect at 45F the wild yeast cease most of their activity - certainly enough so that your bread is not going to rise.


My advice would be to shape and proof the bread, and then retard overnight if you wish.


Larry

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Thanks Ford!


Page 168 whole wheat levain does not recommend any retarding. i have had t retard the final dough before shaping due to time constrains.


Update: 8 hours now after the dough came out of refrg. i can see bubbles through the glass bowl... talk about frustration! its bedtime now. Can i fold the dough twice, shape and refrigerate aain for tomorrow, or the dough will be doomed if retarded once more?


Mebake

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Update 2:


Just tried to fold the dough, but it is very extensible yet weak, inother wrds slack which implies proteolysis. any expanation?


I'am going to take the advise of Minioven and sprinkle 1T worth of instant yeast on the spreaded dough, add some bread flour, and bake at late night.


Mebake

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

Hi Mebake,


I am curious how the story of your lazy loaf ended. I suspect that adding yeast would not help much if the proteolysis was already expanded. But I am a newbie...


As for "why" I have impression that sometimes it just "happens". It could be even a bad batch od flour, or anything else.


I wish it won´t happen next time!


zdenka

Ford's picture
Ford

It may be too much hydrolysis in an acid medium of the glutin and the structure is just not there any longer.  In any case this is now history, I am sure you have gone to bed by this time.  I would like to know your final result of this experience. 


Ford

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Well, Zdenka, i ended up sprinkling 1T of yeast onto the spreaded dough, french kneading it (coz it was slack) shape it into a loose ball seams down in a oiled plastic bowl and retard it in the fridge. Next day, i took it out at 7:00 am , lost hope for a bread, and headed to work. When i got back, the dough looed way overproofed puffy and acidic. My wife asked about it , and i said throw it. She couldn't gather nerve to do so, and so she formed it and baked it right away. It rose somewhat, but the end result was a sour, gummy lusterless bread, but was edible nevertheless. What a tragic ending ;)


well, Ford, i don't know what a hydrolysis is, i wish i did.


And Larry was right, I happened to read Hamelman's bread yesterday, and i noticed him saying:


"Do not attempt to refrigerate the levain, let it ferment and then refrigerate it. I wish i could have read more about levain breads before attempting at his recipes.


Mebake

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

I am sorry you ended with a bad result :-(


One thing you could try if it happens again (well, I hope it won´t!) is to avoid prolonging the fermentation (because the enzyme activity would just make things worse and the bread gets more sour) and put the dough into a pan. If there is at least a little strenght left it will be support the shape and the resulting crumb. - That is what helped a little when I found myself with a nearly liquid dough.


Is you citation



"Do not attempt to refrigerate the levain..."



from Bread? I wonder what it means. It is quite common to refrigerate sourdough for fermentation, either immedietaly after mixing or after a couple of hours when the fermenation has already progressed


zdenka

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Hi Zdenka,


On the contrary, the final dough was retarded immedietly after mixing which is not advised by hamelman (thi s applies to sourdoughs only), so no prolonged fermentation. There was actually no fermentation when the dough came out of the fridge the next day, the dough just sat there refusing to rise.


Mebake

kolobezka's picture
kolobezka

Actually it was here on TFL where I learned about retarding the sourdough just after mixing - see Jeff´s posts here and here.


I tried this method yesterday. It worked but I admit I prefer retarding the dough later and then, in the morning, shape the cold dough. I do not know how it would be if the temperature in my kitchen were cooler. Now it is around 77-80°F. I guess that in winter the dough would take all day to rise and, sure, the enzymes (or hydrolysis?) would take the prime :(


Could you give me the page of Hamelman´s comment on sourdough please?


Thanks,


zdenka

Ford's picture
Ford

Hydrolysis is the reaction of water on other materials, such as protein and starch.  In the case of gluten, the large molecules are broken down to smaller ones and the network supporting the gas is destroyed.  The acid of the sourdough facilitates this process, as do various enzymes.


Ford

dlstanf2's picture
dlstanf2

Next time you re-inoculate your starter add about 20% WG Rye flour to the feeding. This will increase your flora count and the leavening ability of the final dough. This will help reduce the acetic acids and the resulting LABs will not interfere as much with the leavening of the dough. Also, it's best to proof in the oven with the light on and a damp towel oven the bowl. And sourdoughs can sometimes be stubborn with their rising times. Most commercial applications proof around ~30 deg C (84 to 86 deg F). with high humidity.       

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Hi Zdenka, I do not have the book infront of me now, i shall tell you the page where i found that statement. And Thanks Ford for the Explanation.


Dlstanf2, i have used a white starter fed with AP flour, which i have converted from whole wheat starter after 3 successive feedings. I don't know whether the presence of Rye in the starter would have saved the dough, i will stick to Whole wheat starter from now on, no chances, whole wheat bread needs wholewheat starter.


Mebake

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Zdenka, page 148, hamelman says in preparing levain : Do not refrigerate a just fed build, let it ripe then chill it.


Mebake