The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Sourdough Rye from Advanced Bread & Pastry

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Sourdough Rye from Advanced Bread & Pastry

 


I have some experience baking Jewish Sour Ryes and German-type rye breads. Suas' formula for “Sourdough Rye Bread” (Advanced Bread and Pastry, pp. 212-213) seems to me to be for a French-style “Pain de Seigle,” although Suas does not label it as such. It uses a stiff levain identical to the one Suas uses for his “San Francisco Sourdough,” but then the final dough is 60% rye flour. Overall, the rye content is 52% of the total flour. The overall dough hydration is 70%.



 


00">

Levain Formula

Wt (oz)

Baker's %

Bread flour

2 1/2

95

Medium rye flour

1/8

5

Water

1 1/4

50

Starter (stiff)

2 1/8

25

Total

6

230

 

Final dough

Wt (oz)

Baker's %

Bread flour

6

40

Medium rye flour

8 7/8

60

Water

10 7/8

72.8

Yeast (instant)

1/8 tsp

0.12

Salt

3/8

2.53

Levain

6

40

Total

2 lb

215.43

 

Procedure

  1. Mix levain thoroughly.

  2. Ferment for 12 hours at room temperature.

  3. Mix the dough ingredients to achieve some gluten development. DDT 75-78ºF. (I mixed for 7 minutes at Speed 2 in a KitchenAid stand mixer.)

  4. Transfer to an oiled bowl. Cover tightly and ferment for 2 hours.

  5. Divide into two equal pieces and pre-shape into balls.

  6. Rest for 20-30 minutes, covered.

  7. Shape as bâtards.

  8. Proof in bannetons or en couche for 90-120 minutes at 80ºF.

  9. Pre-heat oven to 500ºF for 45-60 minutes, with baking stone and steaming apparatus in place.

  10. Pre-steam oven. Transfer loaves to the peel. Score as desired, and transfer to the baking stone.

  11. Steam oven and turn temperature down to 450ºF.

  12. Bake for 30-35 minutes or until done.

  13. Remove loaves to a cooling rack and cool completely before slicing.

This dough does develop some gluten from the 12.7% protein bread flour used, but it otherwise handles like a high-rye bread. The dough is clay-like and sticky, although less so than if it had had higher hydration. It was easy to shape with a light dusting of flour on the board.

The loaves expanded by no more than 50% after over 2 hours proofing at 80ºF on a couche, and they had modest oven spring. The cuts opened up nicely, considering.

 

The crust was hard and crunchy. The crumb was soft and moist. This is a pretty thin loaf - marginally bigger than a baguette. The ratio of crust to crumb is relatively high with a marked contrast in texture, which makes it quite interesting in the mouth.

The flavor is mildly sour with a sweetish, earthy rye flavor. Very nice. The French prefer this type of bread with smoked meats, soft cheeses and fish. We are having salmon for dinner tomorrow, and I have a nice Laura Chanel Chevre in the fridge. This rye should be delicious with both.

David

Submitted to YeastSpotting

 

Comments

OldWoodenSpoon's picture
OldWoodenSpoon

and I can't wait to see the crumb.  For a 60% rye this looks very light (not dense) from the outside.  I continue to struggle with crust myself, and while I have checked and verified my oven temperature I don't seem to be able to get that beautiful robust bake on my loaves that you do.  You bake at 450F for 30-35 minutes, and you get such lovely, dark crusts.  I'll keep working at it.


 


OldWoodenSpoon


postscript:  yes, relentless! And excellent!!!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Actually, the total flour in the loaf turns out to be 50% rye. The crust is thick and rye-like. The crumb is well-aerated and light in texture.


This bread was baked for 30 minutes. Suas prescribes 35 minutes, but it looked perfect at 30.


Maybe my oven temperature runs hot. I've never checked. I'm almost afraid to. I can say that it heats evenly, at least as judged by the consistency of crust coloration regardless of whether the loaf is placed in back or front, left or right. Whatever, I can't complain. 


You know, I almost always pre-heat the oven to 500ºF, so the very first part of the bake is hotter than what I report. I do this to get better oven spring. Maybe it also partly accounts for my darker crusts. If you don't do this, you might want to give it a try and see how your crust turns out. LMK.


David

OldWoodenSpoon's picture
OldWoodenSpoon

That crumb is as beautiful as the crust David.  Well done indeed!


I preheat to 525F in my oven, and it is spot-on for calibration.  Perhaps it is my La Cloche timing?  I am speaking of my own sourdough formula (5% Rye, 20% KAF Bread, 75% KAF AP, salt, water and starter) that I bake most often as our daily bread when I say:  I always bake it in my La Cloche baker.  I preheat it on quarry tiles (and under quarry tiles as well) to 525F for 35-40 minutes before the first bake (one at a time for me en Cloche).  I load it and keep the 525F setting for 10 minutes, then turn it down to 475F.   After 5 more minutes I remove the La Cloche lid, which means I am steaming for about 15 minutes.  After 15-18 minutes more the interior temperature is up to about 208F+/-.  I'm thinking that 15 minutes under cover/steam may be too long, and the crust is not permitted enough time to caramelize as I desire.  I'm getting great flavor, a thorough bake and crumb that is very acceptable, but the crust is on the pale side for what I/we prefer.  Darn, I think I need to do some more testing. Now, I just have to get some time for it.


Thanks for the tip, and:  Beautiful loaf!
OldWoodenSpoon

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

I normally bake my breads for at least 1 hour in my presoaked Römertopf (into cold oven bake at 485, no additional steam). I also have a cloche but it seems to have sort of a glaze, so soaking it would not do much, imo. Try baking longer without the top.


Best,


anna

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Another Bold Bake David.


Can't wait to see the crumb. Boy you have been busy!


Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


This and your other post on the Suas Sourdough boules reveal very lovely breads indeed.


Clearly the Suas book is a very sound investment.


I take on board all you say about the use of a bit of wholegrain flour in the French Pain au Levain formula; I very much agree.


Regarding this rye loaf, I've always done this type of loaf "the other way round".


By that, I mean using a rye levain and adding wheat in the final dough.   I think hansjoakim has also been going down that route.


Do you have any comments about the advantages you might have discerned from the wheat leaven over the use of a rye sour.


A couple of great posts; thanks


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Suas' book is truly formidable. He has so many minor variations on many of his formulas, there is hardly time for a weekend baker to scratch the surface. 


I have used a rye sour for mostly wheat breads and also put all the rye in a mostly wheat bread in the levain. I think the main effects, compared to the alternative approaches, have been 1) the levain ripens more quickly, and 2) the product has more pronounced acidity.


I'm also convinced that pre-fermented rye yields a better crumb texture than rye added to the final dough. 


I have read the discussions you and hansjoakim have had about using a rye sour rather than a wheat flour levain. Do you find other advantages than the ones I mentioned above?


David

ananda's picture
ananda

Yes, I think the increased acidity from the rye, plus the assumed correct hydration yields a longer keeping bread as well.


I agree absolutely with everything else you write here.


Talking of bread books, have you seen my post on the learning materials I have in College? see: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18189/booklist-bakery-students


Good to hear from you, as ever


Andy

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

You have given my the courage to increase the rye content, I normally keep it at 20%. 


best,


anna

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

You will find that a 50% rye dough is substantially different from one with 20% rye. 


Actually, now that you mention it, this bread would be a good, gentle introduction to rye breads for those who have no prior rye experience. It's not very different from a 40% "light rye," but the dough is less sticky than many of those, presumably because of lower hydration.


David

AnnaInMD's picture
AnnaInMD

looks like this one wants to be an overnighter. Very slow to respond to the starter and, yes, the dough is quite firm. 


anna

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Anna.


I think I mentioned that the dough was slow to expand both in bulk fermentation and proofing. It never did double in volume, yet the dough had lots of nice bubbles, so I divided it at about 2 1/2 hours. It probably could have fermented longer. The poke test said it was adequately but not excessively fermented. From the crumb structure, I'd say I did all right with fermentation time.


My starter was really active, and the kitchen was quite warm. I thought maybe my instant yeast had pooped out. I'm relieved you are finding similar dough behavior. I do note that the amount of yeast called for is very small, but I've found Suas' times pretty much spot on before this.


My inclination would be to try finding a warmer place to ferment/proof, but, if you let it go overnight, I'd be interested in your results.


David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Beautiful!  Makes for nice sized slices.  Crumb shot is perfect! 


Mini

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I agree about the slice size. It's about perfect for hors d'oeuvres. 


This was an interesting rye to make. As I'm sure you noticed, the fermentation and proofing were identical to a French pain au levain and not like a German/Scandinavian rye. This results in a much lighter crumb texture.


I continue to marvel at the variety of rye bread types ... and so many I have yet to bake.


David

DonD's picture
DonD

I have Suas' book and have been reading it but have not had the chance to try any of his formulas. This will definitely inspire me.


Don

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I've now made about 6 or 8 of Suas' breads. They were all good. As I mentioned to Andy in another topic, the number of minor variations he provides for some products is amazing.


Take a look at the variations for croissant dough, for example. It takes my breath away.


I'm going to take the Artisan I course at SFBI this summer. I understand that the emphasis is on how variations in techniques impact end product, using baguettes as the model. 


I think that the difference between "arisan" and "virtuoso" is the total control of product characteristics through a deep understanding of how ingredients and techniques effect results. 


Perfection is an ever-receding horizon.


David

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

David, the small holes and the lovely color make the crumb very attractive.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

wally's picture
wally

That looks like a perfect 'cocktail' rye - something to be savored with a good cheese.


Larry

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

David