The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Today's breads - San Francisco Sourdough & San Joaquin Sourdough

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Today's breads - San Francisco Sourdough & San Joaquin Sourdough

Nothing new in today's baking, but these are two of my favorites.


The San Francisco Sourdough is from Suas' "Advanced Bread and Pastry." I fed my stock starter to make a firm levain with KAF Bread Flour and BRM Dark Rye. The final dough was mixed with KAF AP. The San Joaquin Sourdough was made as previously described (many times). This batch was made with a 73% hydration dough.



I feel my bâtard shaping is coming along. I'm using the technique described in Hamelman's "Bread."



San Francisco Sourdough crumb



San Joaquin Sourdough crumb


I also made a batch of tagliatelle. I use Marcella Hazan's recipe which calls for 2 large eggs and 1 1/2 cups of AP flour. However, I have been curious how it would be made with Italian doppio 0 flour. I used Caputo red label. To my surprise, it was much thirstier than KAF AP, and I had to add a couple tablespoons of water to the dough for it to come together. Even with the added water, the dough was drier than usual. I was surprised because Marcella says the recipe usually used in Italy is 1 cup of flour to one egg. I wonder if Italian eggs are usually larger than our "large" eggs, or if there is another explanation. Maybe one of our Italian members has an explanation.


In any event, the pasta, made with an Atlas crank pasta machine, sure seems lovely. I'll see how it tastes at dinner tomorrow, with a sauce of home made ground turkey Italian sausage and kale.



David

Comments

proth5's picture
proth5

I've made a lot of pasta in my day. (OK - my little Italian nonna did not teach me - bt I've made a lot of pasta.)


My  "go to" flour combination for a number of years has been a 50/50 blend of KA "Italian style" flour and semolina flour.  It gives the pasta a lovely color and just the right "bite."


I've alway had to add a little extra water than the original recipe.  That's fairly typical for me on all recipes like this so I never even gave it a second thought.


I've made noodles (Oh, us "Dutchies"), lasagna and various raviolis with these flours - always a winner rolled thick or thin.


Yours look great!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, Pat.


I thought about adding some semolina. Next time.


I take it you use semolina rather than "Fancy Durum," the more finely ground flour. Yes?


David

proth5's picture
proth5

that I get from the bulk bin - so I'm thinking it is semolina.  Usually a little bit sandy...


Hope this helps.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Okay. I have the plan for my next batch of pasta: 2 eggs. 100 gms doppio 0 flour. 100 gms semolina flour. Water as needed to make a firm dough.


David

arlo's picture
arlo

Maybe one day I'll get around to making noodles, but at the moment my main carb craving is keeping my with bread : ) Your noodles look superb!


The breads look beautiful, I have yet to try your San Joaquin formula but hope to before my fall semester starts up soon. I have read the formula, seen others post their success stories but shamefully haven't attempted it yet : /


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

One of the (many) things I like about the San Joaquin SD is that it is a bread that is exceptionally easy to fit into a busy work or school schedule. It needs about 3 hours of very intermittent attention on two consecutive days (or evenings).


I get a lot of other stuff done during the times I'm making this bread. It's all about organizing your time for multi-tasking, a good life skill to foster in our world.


David

belfiore's picture
belfiore

Since I live in the San Joaquin Valley I really should try your recipe! I am new to this and I have a couple of questions...how much dough do you weigh out for your average loaf and are you proofing  in a banneton/basket/linen couch? I am also trying to figure out how much rise time is not enough or too much. My last question is how the heck do you "season" a banneton so it doesn't stick?


Thanks and your breads are very nice.


Toni

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

My formula produces just under a kilo of dough, and I generally divide it into two pieces. I believe the loaves pictured scaled to 492 gms each, before baking.


I have proofed the SJ SD in brotformen before, but I prefer this bread proofed en couche.


Re. your question regarding "rise time:" Are you asking about bulk fermentation before retarding or proofing time? In either case, remember to "watch the dough, not the clock." For bulk fermentation, after the last stretch and fold, I let the dough expand about 25% and look for lots of little bubbles forming in it. I can see them because I ferment in a glass, 2 liter batter pitcher. If given this amount of head start, the dough continues to expand under refrigeration until it cools enough so the yeast go to sleep. The method I use has you divide the dough and pre-shape it right out of the refrigerator. It rests, covered, for an hour before final shaping. It then proofs for about 45 minutes or until expanded by about 50%. (The proofing time will vary, mostly with ambient temperature.) Over-proofing results in poor oven spring and bloom.


Bannetons are "seasoned" by rubbing a 50/50 mix of AP and rice flour into them. The exact procedure depends on whether you are using coiled wicker brotformen or linen-lined willow bannetons.


Where in the San Joaquin Valley do you live? I know we have at least one member from Modesto and one from Visalia. 


David

belfiore's picture
belfiore

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am in Bakersfield where pretty soon I'll only have to stick the baking stone outside for the bread to bake! Where are you hailing from?


I meant the time from the refrigerator to the oven...I seem to be okay through the construction & bulk fermenting in the refrigerator, although if I read your instructions correctly, I am not allowing a 25% bulk rise after the last stretch & fold before refrigeration. I also am not doing the pre-shape, rest, then final shape. I am dividing & shaping right out of the refrigerator then proofing in coiled, non-linen lined brotformen. (I have seen both forms referred to as bannetons~so they are named separately?). I've tried both baguettes and batards en couche & have had problems w/dough sticking to the linen. I may need to rub your 50/50 flour mix into the fiber rather than just dusting...will that do the trick?


Another newbie clarification...what is the difference between oven spring & bloom?


By the time I figure out how to upload pictures I might be able to consistently produce nice looking bread instead of boat anchors...right now it's a roll of the dice which way it'll go.


Toni

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm in Fresno, where it's not any cooler.


I described my method in a previous post. You're new enough on TFL to have missed the Great Baguette Quest of 2008. The SJ SD evolved from the baguette formula of Anis Bouabsa, who won the prize for "The Best Baguette in Paris" that year. Anis' method was first described on TFL in this post: The Great Baguette quest N°3: Anis Bouabsa You might find it interesting.


The coiled bread baskets are German and are called "Brotformen" (singlular, "Brotform"). The linen-lined baskets are French and are called "Banneton." At least on this site, "Banneton" is used to describe both.


You can sprinkle a linen couche with AP flour or the AP/Rice mix. You can also roll your loaves in flour or sprinkle flour on them to reduce sticking. I use a piece of heavy linen sold for rolling out pastry for pie crusts, and it has some sort of non-stick treatment, but it still sticks if I don't flour it.


Oven spring is the increase in loaf volume that occurs during baking. Bloom is the opening up of cuts in the loaf during baking. It is called "grigne" (grin) in French. 


Happy baking!


David

wally's picture
wally

Beautiful looking bâtards, David.  No need for constant novelty when you can consistently produce those wonderful everyday sourdoughs (which I'm sure a lot of folks wish they could get their hands on!)


Larry

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I like variety, and there are many breads I have never made but want to. On the other hand, when I consider which breads get chosen out of the freezer most often, they are SF SD, SJ SD and Cinnamon-Walnut-Raisin bread.


Last Summer, when I vacationed with family and took a variety of breads including challah and rye bread, it was the SF SD that got eaten up the fastest, even though the others had been specifically requested.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

You certainly  have your shaping down with these two breads. Very nice translucency in both.


I'm a pasta amateur but have always had good luck using 1 large egg for every 100 grams of flour. Tipo 00 or semolina flour seem to be OK with this ratio for me.


Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Even though I'm a firm believer in weighing ingredients, I've never weighed the flour when making pasta. I will do so next time.


David

EvaB's picture
EvaB

have you considered the fact that your flour might be drier? I know where I live the flour always seems to take more water than the recipe calls for, and that is because the humidity is rarely above 45% and since I have chronic bronchitis, my house humidity is kept around 40% if I can get it to stay that low. I have a horrid time in summer because of higher humidity (sometimes over 60% and sometimes more) and have noticed that flour is less thirsty in summer. Even though I try to keep the humidity down.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, EvaB.


That is certainly a possibility and I thought about it, but I didn't find the breads made with other flours in the same environment requiring more water than usual.


David

Marni's picture
Marni

It's always a pleasure to see your posts - the bread doesn't have to be something new.


What caught my eye was the "homemade turkey Italian sausage" I've been wanting to make my own sausage, I know it's not difficult, but do you have a favorite recipe?


Thanks,


Marni

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The recipe i use is as follows:



 


This is the original recipe scaled down for 1 lb of meat and with my notes in italic:


 


1 lb. ground pork shoulder. I use ground turkey or chicken dark meat.


1 clove crushed garlic.


¼ cup cold water. Omit if using ground poultry.


1 tsp salt


¾ tsp ground black pepper


1 tsp fennel seeds (preferably ground)


1 T grated pecorino romano cheese. I use parmesan.


1 T chopped Italian parsley


¼ tsp red pepper flakes (Optional)


 


Mix all ingredients together.


 


This freezes well. It is wonderful in sauces for pasta and on pizza.



 


Enjoy!


David

Marni's picture
Marni

Sounds great - and I even have most of the ingredients on hand!


Marni

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Breads, pasta everything looks gorgeous and dinner sounds fabulous!  Yesterday I made a pan of lasagne but no homemade noodles : ( 


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Think carefully before deciding to make your own fresh pasta. There's no turning back.


David

margieluvschaz's picture
margieluvschaz

Just wanted to tell you I always look at your bread posts & admire your work!  They are always beautiful & your posts are extremely informative and very helpful.  Thank you for posting your work!


Margie 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

For your kind words.


David

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David,


I'm sure you're right about never turning back once you've made fresh pasta.


Alison and I did a double act and made Spanokopita a couple of months back.


I made the filo pastry sheets, and she made the filling...then I assembled and baked the pie.


Our dinner guests were bowled over  by homemade filo; but it's not that big a deal to make, given the right timescale.


I love your breads; and, just the same...not much work over a long timescale.   Multi-tasking does allow a lot of other things to happen too.


I note Eric is bang on about the ratio of egg to flour weights...I 'm sure you'll be following his advice from now on.


Anyway, wonderful bread, as ever, and great pasta too!


Best wishes


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I've never attempted filo. The meticulous stretching process I've read about spooks me a bit. I imagine it takes many attempts to get it right.


Frozen filo sheets are readily available locally. We have a large Armenian population where I live. I wonder how much better home made is. I would guess you want to use something like pastry flour to get a very extensible dough. True?


Hmmmm ... I wonder if my Greek DIL ever made filo with her grandmother.


David

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi David


...is the same for most pastries.   Time to rest, and work cold, of course!


Then, being able to roll out the dough gossamer thin is no big deal.


There's not much more to it than that.   Just ensuring there is sufficient flour on the bench so the dough doesn't get stuck!


Then, rest at any point necessary.   Finally, plenty of good quality butter, melted between the layers...not a healthy option!   Is any pastry?


I used my premium bread flour [12% highest quality protein] to make the dough.   Technique over material here, for sure!


Do you know anything about the lovely heavy seeded rye breads produced from the local traditional Greek bakeries?


Best wishes


Andy

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

My research on traditional Greek bread has suggested its evolution has lagged that of France and England. The use of less refined flour, sourdough leavening and village baking in wood-fired ovens is common, or was until recently. Durum wheat is more commonly used than in Northern Europe.


Since I doubt that rye is grown in Greece, i wonder whether any Greek rye bread being made today is a recent borrowing, perhaps related to German incursions during WW II.


I believe I did find a web site of a Greek flour mill on one of my searches, and I seem to recall they sold rye flour. .... I was able to find the site again. They do mill rye flour, but it appears to be for the Scandinavian market. They seem to have a business association with a Danish flour company.


I don't think we have any Greek bakeries here. I have looked at a number of Greek cookbooks for bread recipes, and none have had any for rye breads.


David

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Wow..when we thought you had attained the max, there you go showing us up again!! Beautiful loaves! Been away for a while. Starting to get back into shape with a whole grain apple/cinnamon.  I really like it, good for the grandkids.


Very nice David,


Betty

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Nice to see you back on TFL! "Whole grain apple/cinnamon" sure sounds interesting.


David

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Another great bake.


I just got "Advanced Bread and Pastry.", have been looking at the SF sourdough formula, now I have to try it.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Suas' SF SD is as straight ahead as they get, and the bread is really good. For me, it is not assertively sour - just a bit of a tang. It's a nice everyday bread for me.


Hmmm .... I may work at making a more sour version. I am pretty sure I'd get that by elaborating a couple extra builds rather than the single feeding of my stock starter I usually do.


Looking forward to seeing your take on it. I have high expectations.


David

ZD's picture
ZD

David, I have made baguettes based on your San Joaquin Sourdough post. I am new to using rye in baguettes and the crust tastes a little burnt at the color I normally cook too. I though I would work on a lighter crust next time. I am looking at your photos and mine looks about the same. Any thoughts?


Greg R

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi ZD.


I happen to prefer a darker crust, but if you want it lighter, I'd bake at a lower temperature - say 450ºF - for a few minutes longer. 


David