The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Help!!! I hate my new Bosch Universal...not getting good results, need help

nancy58's picture
nancy58

Help!!! I hate my new Bosch Universal...not getting good results, need help

I purchased a new Bosch Universal (mixer only) and have used it twice in the 10 days I have had it. First time made 1 loaf and dough climbed up over the top of the metal dough hook, gluten development was ok, I think it is much better in my KA 600 Pro. Today I made a 4 loaf recipe of 100% whole wheat thinking that with more dough it would help the dough staydown in the bowl better...not to be. This time it even went UNDER the dough hook. Moderate gluten development but was never soft, supple dough despiteadding 1 3/4 cups pf additional flour and hand kneading it.


I don't understand what is happening, or not happening. Followed the recipe that came from Bosch to the letter in terms of mixing times, etc. I added the extra flour and hand kneading because the dough never got past the craggy, rough looking . I did give the dough a first rising and then shaped. At that point the dough was still extremely sticky and hard to shape into loaves. Second rising took about 35 minutes but the loaves are not smooth on top and I fear that that they will be full of holes due to problems with shaping them.


 


From ANYONE who has a Bosch, what am I doing wrong? I honestly do not like this machine and if I don't get a decent loal of bread out of it this week, it's going back!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Nancy.


I have the same mixer and have been very happy with it.


I'm not entirely clear regarding the problem you are having, but here are some thoughts:


1. It sounds like you are measuring ingredients by volume. This is unreliable, so it's hard to problem solving your recipe. If you don't have a kitchen scale, get one, and use recipes that give ingredients in weights.


2. It is normal for the dough to climb up the center post and get into the grooves at the top. Unless your dough is very high hydration, this decreases as the gluten develops with mixing.


3. The mixing times given for the Bosch are way too short, in my experience. Mix until you get the degree of gluten development you want. I find with most of my breads, 6-10 minutes - sometimes longer - is required.


You have a great mixer, but it is different from your KitchenAid, and you need to get some experience with it to learn how it handles dough. Don't give up! 


David

flournwater's picture
flournwater

As dmsnyder mentioned, climbing the dough hook is very common  -  depending on hydration levels, it happens with every mixer I've ever used.  One "quick fix" for this is to spray your dough hook with a spray type of oil before starting the kneading process; especially the underside and rim of the flat top portion of the dough hook.


When I have trouble with my dough stubbornly hiding under the dough hook I usually find that it's because I have too much or uneven hydration.  This morning's rye bread formula went into the mixer at about 55 - 60%$ hydration.  My ratio of rye to bread flour was a bit too high and the paddle offered me a pretty stiff dough so I added a few grams of water.  The new level of hydration gave the dough hook cause to spin in the mix (water lubricates) while the dough hid on the bottom of the mixing bowl.  It took a few minutes of hand kneading to bring the dough back to a consistency that proved acceptable to the dough hook.


The Bosch Universal is a very nice machine (wish I could afford one) so don't get mad at it.  Just take your time to learn its idiosyncrasies and you'll learn to love it.


One last note  -  throw away those measuring cups and get a good scale.   Improved accuracy in formulation will give you more consistent results in both your bread and your ability to learn how your mixer behaves under various conditions.


 

nancy58's picture
nancy58

I do have a scale and use it regularly when making bread. About the only time I do not is when I "know" a formula very well. I have my chef's certificate and have taken professional courses from Jeffery Hamelman. I know what is involved in bread making. This machine IMHO is junk. This is not the first time I made bread in it. Frist I tried a "tried and true" recipe and even that failed miserably. The bread today roase quickly after shaping (about 30min) and with oven at proper temperature I removed the oiled plastic crap and all the loaves deflated. Let them rise to just above the rim and even moving them deflates them. None of the loaves had ANY oven spring and were all below the rim when fully backed with craggy looking tops. Flavor was quite bitter in flavor, even taking in thhe consideration of the honey in the formula. The overall hydration was 60% but the dough acted as if were 80-90% like Cibatta dough. The crumb was nice and what I sliced so far, no holes.


If you have any more ideas, I would be open to trying them. Thank you for your input.


 

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Sorry, didn't mean to insult your credentials. Looks to me like, with all that training, you're much better qualified to identify the problem than I am.

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Not exactly sure how the bitterness of your final product could possibly relate to the mixer. Are you sure your flour is fresh? I'd throw the flour out and start with a new batch. Do you use whole grains often? They don't act like white flour.


The dough that rose quickly and deflated sounds like it was overproofed. Did it have a high amount of yeast in the recipe?


Not sure why the mixer is getting blamed for all these things unrelated to the mixer.


I'm hoping to get a Universal Plus sometime this year. I've started to outgrow the KA-see my bowl of CROB in my Blog that I mixed entirely by hand.


Perhaps you need to back up. Take a deep breath and do a simple white flour, yeast, water salt formula (or sourdough if you prefer) and work on it for a few days until you learn the mixer. That way you won't have all these other variables like a recipe from the Bosch manual and whole grains confusing the issue.

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

nancy58,


Not having a Bosch machine, I can't speak to the mixing issues you are experiencing.


Your description of the finished dough's behavior, though, raises some questions.  I'm guessing that you are working with a honey-WW bread (you didn't say specifically, but you mention honey as an ingredient and a bitter flavor in the bread).  If so, is it possible that the WW flour in this batch is too old?  That could explain both the bitterness (rancid oils in the flour) and the sub-par dough characteristics.  Even if it is something that you purchased recently and is not past its use-by date, storage conditions between the mill and your kitchen might have been harmful to the flour's freshness.  The flavor, after all, wouldn't have been negatively affected by your mixer.  Similarly, a damaged flour could affect the dough's other physical characteristics.


From what you describe of the dough's rapid fermentation and subsequent deflation, I wonder if there was an excess of yeast (possible even when weighing ingredients) and/or warmer temperatures than those used by the recipe developer.  My money would be on too much yeast, since the dough expanded so rapidly, but temperature may also be playing a part.  Whatever the cause, the dough you describe is a poster child for over-proofing.  Whether the gluten was well or poorly developed during mixing / kneading / shaping, too much proofing (even if it only took 30 minutes) will produce exactly the symptoms you describe.


In addition to the other posters' advice to invest the time to learn your mixer's characteristics and capabilities, mine would be to do a forensic review of all of the other factors that could have led to such an unhappy outcome.


Best of luck with future bakes.


Paul

breadbaby's picture
breadbaby

Is it possible that you got a "lemon"?  I would take that one back and demand to to be given a replacement, with the stipulation that if the replace works like the original, in other words, is worthless, that you get your money back.  And btw, I completely understand how you must feel. 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

 


 HI Nancy


We had a small commercial mixer that was wired wrong or should i say that where it was being used the plug was wired wrong and it ran in the reverse direction now when that happens you really get the dough climbing the spiral hook.


I wouldn't rely to much on perscribed mixing times as they are notoriously unreliable and affected a lot by the types of dough and the hydrations of mixes. As you have had plenty of experience try to check your mix as oon as it is coming together, usually in the first minute or two of the mix  to make any of your adjustments to flour or water. I prefer to add water as it is the easier to manipulate. if you are making a dough that you are unfamiliar with try reserving a little of the water called for and adding if necesary.(it is hard to take it out) Most formulae are worked out on the flour ratio, certainly bakers percentages are so the adition of half a cup of flour can be significant in a small dough.


A  NEW trick that i have recently employed is if a dough calls for say 1.5 litres of water i fill a 2 litre container and use the amount called for  or perhaps a little less  and then make any early adjustments if it is a little dry and likely to be a bit tight, quite often you might even make one or two further small adjustments of water.   The water is on hand at the same temperature and at the end of the mixing you can go back to the container and verify exactly what went in by what is left, it can be suprising what those couple of extra adjustments add up to and you end up with an accurate record especially good if you are doing a post on what you have achieved for others to follow.


Another tip that i use almost all the time now is to quickly work out what 1% of your formula is  ie 1KG (1000g) = 10g or perhaps 500g flour then 1% = 5g and everything else can be quickly worked out from that.


If you really are not getting along with your machine and not building a happy relationship it would seem  you are in the right place to be selling a near new machine!


Regards Yozza

flournwater's picture
flournwater

The only way that could happen is if you were using DC current.  If your electrical service was the common AC service, I suspect there was something else amiss.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Thats for sure on that one


Mr. Bob


www.siemann.us

yozzause's picture
yozzause

AC/DC


What a great Aussie group,


I'm no electrician, i moved the mixer from one  class room to another and it took a batch of dough to notice that it was turning in the wrong direction it is a 3 phase power point. Mind you the water HERE goes down the plug hole in a different direction here too.


YOZZA  

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

3 phase is different than 110 volts.  With 3 phase if you switch any two wire it will reverse the direction of the motor.

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Whilst doing my response, PM'cool has come up with some of the other things that i was thinking about when first reading your post . The proof does seem rather rapid and the bitterness is a bit worrying, that is definately not the mixer.


regards Yozza

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

A mixing method should not effect the problems you list. Look elsewhere.


David

nancy58's picture
nancy58

First off, I want to thank everyone who took the time and using their knowledge and experience to help with the problem I am having.


Second, I have decided to call the company I purchased it from (the Pleasant Hill Grain Co. and discuss my problems with them. Dependent upon their answers, I will decide to either return the machine or keep plowing through this very frustrating transition period.


I do agree that the amount of yeast used exceeded the recommended 1-2% for lean doughs, unlike enriched doughs like Brioche. One last thing, I was never able to get any kind of gluten window. I used 1/2 King Arthur Commercial White Whole wheat and 1/2 King Arthur Whole Wheat, that was just purchased last week and has an expiration date of Sept 2011, stored in the freezer.


Again, thank you for all your suggestions and I will try to disect if it was the machine, yeast flour or recipe. Happy Baking!!

Jean6's picture
Jean6

I bought a Bosch Universal a few months ago.  It does take time to get used to how it works.  I agree with one of the posters who said kneading the dough takes longer than the book recommends.


Before you send back the machine, I would suggest that you use your own recipe, cut the recipe down to about two loaves worth and try that as an experiment to see how it handles a smaller amount of dough.  I watch the dough and add flour just to the point where it begins to clean the sides of the bowl.  My multigrain recipes usually come out on the sticky side, but they firm up as they proof. I do not proof in the mixer, but scrape it out into a bowl.


The book that comes with the machine is like most recipe books in that it is written for the average home cook, not bread afficiandos like people on this forum. I have looked at the recipes as something to try, but using my own tried and true methods.  They suggest that with freshly ground whole wheat that bread does not need a second rise.  I disagree.  Mine comes out better with that second rise. 


The arms should spin clockwise and some creeping up the middle is to be expected. I have noticed that too much hydration does create more dough creep, but the other problems you have experienced should not stem from the mixer.


I have made yeast doughs, sourdoughs and brioche with my machine and love it.  But I ignore their mixing times and trust my experience. The Bosch keeps going when my Kitchenaid would have keeled over.

kneading's picture
kneading

I traded in my old Bosch for a new Bosch and had all kinds of trouble with my old reliable bread recipes. I did find out I had to use setting 2 for kneading bread which helped, Kathy

Doc Tracy's picture
Doc Tracy

Did you happen to measure the dough temp before and after mixing? Perhaps it heated up too much. That's the only other thing that I can think of. If that's the case, your new mixer requires colder water but I'm sure you know how to figure out DDT.


My bets are still on the formula and bad flour. Flour could have been mishandled anywhere in the transport process. Toss it and get new bags.

nancy58's picture
nancy58

I called and explained step by step what had happened with my problems with my Bosch. The woman stated that I did not use enough flour and I over mixed it and it was starting to break down. I know that it was breaking down but the dough never became soft and supple. It was always craggy and rough. She gave me suggestions regarding mixing times (shorter) than what is listed in the info with the mixer. She also stated that I did not use enough flour and that I should give it another try with the new info I was given. So I will try again and see how things turn out. I will choose another recipe and let you all know how things went.


 


@flournwater, no need to apologize, we all have problems at times, regardless of our level of knowledge. Breads are given only a few weeks of study, to short for all the things one should know. I'm glad that all levels of knowledge are here for one another on this great site!

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Nancy,


I suggest you start with a recipe you know or want to become familiar with and make it by hand. Learn how to do the stretch and fold method. Use a recipe that has at least half bread flour or All Purpose flour so you can feel and see how the flour absorbs water and becomes developed over time.  When you have seen and felt the gluten developed in your hands, seen the window pane membrane between your fingers, then you will know what to look for when using a machine to do this job.


From reading this thread, I see you have received some good advice from some very talented bakers. Still, you persist in blaming the mixer.This is akin to blaming the fuel in your car for the music on the radio.


Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


This is akin to blaming the fuel in your car for the music on the radio.



So, the reason I can't get the heavy metal station on my car radio any more isn't because they took the lead out of gasoline?


It seemed so obvious!


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

The pinging didn't go well with Cow Bell I guess.


Eric

KMIAA's picture
KMIAA

Don't know if this gizmo would help or not, but your can purchase this item listed below:  Breadtopia sells it. 


New accessory specially designed for the Bosch Universal Plus to prevent dough from geting into the center column (drive shaft). http://www.breadtopia.com/store


When kneading dough with the Bosch Universal Plus, the dough wants to creep up the drive shaft and can get into the center column. This little gizmo prevents that from happening.


A handly "why not?" product.


Note: Only to be used with the dough hook attachment, not the wire whisks or cookie paddles.


 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

I'm no expert here this is for sure. I will say it is very possible the problems do start with the Bosch Machine. And for people to point fingers at the operator for all that fails when suggestions are made to the problem at hand is well....


I do know my Kitchen Aid gave me similar problems I checked all the suggestions given here and never got to the real problem.  So I stuck my junk back on the shelf and have been working all my dough by hand.


I can tell you with all conditions identical my KA made goop for dough and my hands made normal dough. Perhaps this operator (I) am lacking in the skill of pulling the lever from off to 1 or 2 and even  after slathering Crisco on the dough hook the dough would climb.  I always had to add at least 1/3  more of the called for flour just to make the snot leave the bowl.


So all I can say is perhaps it is the machine. I replaced my KA with a wooden dough bowl and have nothing but success.


Good luck

t-man's picture
t-man

i've used a bosch for many years.  it's been a great machine for home use.  i recently used a hobart 60 quart as i'm in the market for a commercial size mixer for my business.  we mixed about 15 pounds of flour, and i converted all ingredient weights so i was using a tried and true pizza dough recipe... i was BLOWN AWAY by the difference in the dough from mixing in the hobart.  it was the best pizza dough i've ever made and it was my first time in a commercial sized mixer.  that said, i now see what a difference the mixer makes in a particular dough, even when using the same recipe.  night and day.  had i gone from the hobart to the bosch, i'd have been disappointed, as well.  but the bosch did serve me well (and still does at home).  it will take some frustration, trial and error with mix times, batch size, etc., to get it ironed out.  i hear you, but the bosch is a good machine.  we've got one that's seen weekly use for 30 years and it's still spinning! good luck.

Old Dog's picture
Old Dog

Nancy-  What was the verdict on your Bosch?  I am having exactly the same problem switching to a Bosch from my Kitchen Aid, particulalry with my Italian bread made with KArthur Sir Galahad.  I am positive it is the mixer.  My pre-ferments are like silk when made with the KA, but the Bosch leaves the dough torn and shredded.  I bake 100-150 loaves of bread each week for my cottage bakery business, and I have never had this problem before.  What did you do, Nancy?  

One suggested solution was to add more flour, but that is not really a solution as it changes the hydration.  To make good bread in the Bosch do you have to follow the video instructions which say to add flour until the dough clears the sides of the bowl?  If that's how you have to use a Bosch,  how would you make a ciabatta or similar high hydration dough?

Thanks- 

Old Dog

nancy58's picture
nancy58

Old Dog, It did take probably a good solid month of mixing everything I baked in my Bosch to get used to it. Yes the dough climbs on the hook, but it helps but does not eliminate the climbing if you grease the top of the hook and the ridges on the "Stem" (for lack of a better word) where the hook goes into. As far as high hydration doughs go, you have to play with the speed, I use "3" more than expected and they say that "#2" is the highest you should need to knead dough with. Each recipe, depending on the flour tpye and amount needs different mixing speeds and times, so write everything down so you can replicate it if it turns out well or change something the next time if you feel it could be better.

I had called the place where I purchased my Bosch and they were very helpful in helping me through the trials and assorted problems. I did keep the Bosch and love it more than my KA. Now I seem to have the same problems with the KA that I used to with the Bosch!!! I feel that the largest factor in breads turning out using any machine is to get to know your machine. All the info in the world doesn't do any good if your conditions are totally different and/or you are not used to the machine you are working with. Every machine has it's own quirks and I feel now that that is the biggest learning curve there is to ANY machine.

As far as your dough being "torn and shredded", I had that too, give it more time on a slower speed. As far as a high hydration dough, do not add extra flour, it will throw off your %'s and you'll wind up baking bricks. Make it as you normally would and watch the time you are mixing it for, it may take less time than you are used to. If the majority of the dough is cleared from the bowl, I would stop, take the dough out of the bowl and do a few stretch and folds and do not proof it in the Bosch bowl. I always us a larger covered container, lightly oiled for proofing. Also a few stretch and folds during proofing go a long way in enhancing the final dough/product. The high hydration doughs will always be sticky and harder to handle, as they should be, so don't get fooled that the Bosch will make it easier to handle, it won't. The more you use it the better things turn out. If possible, try making small batches in the Bosch for "trial runs" and write down ALL the adjustments you made, even how long it was on each speed and the results you achieved. I know you will get there, just like I did. Both machines are good, just very different. Hope you achieve the results you are looking for...it will happen.

 

jshep's picture
jshep

I was very glad to find this thread as I'm frustrated like the original poster. After my cuisinart died and couldn't handle bread dough any longer, I started using my kitchenaid stand mixer, but was hoping to be able to make  more than 2 loaves at a time and I could hear the motor starting to fail.  So I'd been pining to buy a Bosch, after reading so many great things about it.  I figured if I could sell my KA I'd save up and put the $$ toward a new Bosch.  Happily I could sell my KA and bought the Bosch about a month ago.  I've had one bread recipe turn out and all of my others have been awful.  The dough isn't rising.  I had a wonderful cinammon bread recipe that was great in my KA and I looked forward to making multiple loaves because it would be a great gift.  I've tried it twice and it isn't rising.  It rises about 1/2  of the amount it used to.  I can't tell if I'm undermixing or overmixing - I think I've tried both and neither worked! 

Also is there a standard way to convert 'regular' recipes to making them in the Bosch?  I'd hoped I could just use any bread recipe, but don't know if I follow the instructions of the recipe or if there is a standard way I should add ingrediants (or make a sponge?) when I'm using the Bosch?

Also, how many times should I let it rise when using the Bosch? 

Thanks for any help.  This thread tells me to be patient and just keep at it, so I'll try, but I am finding myself reluctant to bake because it doesn't rise :-(

 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Is the dough very warm when it gets out of the Bosch?

Actually I'm surprised that machines like that (Bosch, but also Braun that stirs the same way) have so much success among break makers. The movement they do is really next to useless, much worse than the stupid movement that planetaries do. Today I tried hard to get something decent out of my Braun, but after  a lot of tests intervalled by 30 minutes pauses nothing good came out.

Maybe they work well with low hydratation doughs, but with high hydratation they are simply a pain.

t-man's picture
t-man

i've been using a bosch for years with no problem.  my standard recipe for a very basic dough is as follows... 1600-1800g bread flour (varies), 1 liter water, 23g salt, and 10g yeast.  that would be a good starting point.  the dough heats considerably with prolonged mixing, keep this in mind and adjust water temp accordingly.  water goes in first followed by the flour.  i sprinkle the yeast on top of the flour and then begin the mix.  after about 5 minutes i add the salt.  mix until you see some gluten development.  10-12 minutes should be sufficient.  i have no idea why you're not seeing a good raise, but i doubt the mixer is the problem.  you could try warmer water to speed it up?  i'd try working with a very basic recipe and adjust different things until you can identify the problem.  i generally find that following recipes is not good when working with doughs... there are so many variables to consider.  with my recipe, start with 1600g flour- if the dough appears too wet after a couple minutes of mixing, add a little more flour- a little at a time.  my rule of thumb in the bosch is to add just enough flour so that the dough does not stick to the sides of the bowl after a couple minutes of mixing.  and i stop mixing when the dough DOES start sticking to the sides (~10-12 minutes).  hope this helps!  with a little practice, i hope you'll learn to love the machine like so many others do.

jshep's picture
jshep

Thanks so much!  Very helpful to have this basic recipe and especially the order for  how to add the ingrediants and when to add the salt.  Also I hadn't know about the 'red flag' that it the dough starts sticking to the sides it has been beaten enough.  I think maybe I beat it too long and just added more flour when that happened... don't really remember, but now I'll know to watch for that.

I'll keep at it and hopefully get the hang of it and soon love my Bosch too.  I'd really like that after wanting it so badly for so long!

 

t-man's picture
t-man

the recipe i gave you... the longer you mix it, the "looser" the dough will become (meaning it will get very soft- almost resembling a batter if you go too long and it heats up too much).  the "sticking to the sides of the bowl" rule... doesn't necessarily mean it is done mixing.  when i make pizza dough i use ~1200-1300g flour to the same amount of water (1 liter).  in that case, yes, there is much sticking to the bowl.  but if you're just getting the hang of the bosch, better to go with a lower hydration dough for practice.  in the first couple minutes of the mix, i will turn it off and scrape the sides with a rubber spatula a couple times and also push the dough back down from climbing the center spindle.  once everything is incorporated, it should tend to stay more toward the bottom of the bowl.  also to note... i've found that 1800g flour and 1L water is about the maximum size batch of dough that i like to mix.  larger quantities gets a little sloppy.  i agree that using the bosch takes some getting used to.  the dough hook is different than most other mixers.  my grandma has been using hers for almost 30 years, i've been using mine for 10.  and i just found a brand new one at a rummage sale for $50!  so now i've got a spare!  if you have time, come back and let me know how it is going- i'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

t-man's picture
t-man

regarding the lack of rise... i like to let some hot tap water sit in the bowl for a few minutes before i start just to warm up the bowl.  dump it out and then add your measured amount at about 120 degrees, then put the flour on top, etc.  be sure your yeast and flour are fresh.  and be sure to let the bread rise in a warm place.  you could increase the yeast to 12g if you're still having poor results.  you might mix a little yeast in warm water and let it sit a few minutes just to see if your yeast is working.  i usually punch the dough down twice before forming my loaves- after 45 minutes, then again after another hour or so before forming loaves.  the mixer shouldn't have an affect on the lack of rise so long as all ingredients are incorporated.  another poster mentioned using a scale to weigh ingredients.  this is a must when baking bread.  measuring by volume doesn't cut it and makes it difficult to learn from adjustments you might make.  i don't know how experienced you are in bread baking, but don't give up.  bread baking takes practice... i've been baking for years, and still find myself improving and learning new things.  repetition is key.

Old Dog's picture
Old Dog

Could it be that a cool kitchen is causing your fermentation issues? My breads take considerably longer to proof when my kitchen is cold.  A couple things to consider:

1)  Don't be a slave to the clock.  Many variables will cause fermentation times to vary, but your eyes don't lie.  Your dough will be risen enough when you can see it has.  A longer, cooler rise will give your bread better flavor anyhow.  If your bread has only risen half what you were expecting, wait.  Let the yeast have a chance to get it to where it should be.

2)  Also, throw away the notion that you have to mix your bread with warm (read as 105-120 degree F) water.  Instead, use the bread baker's formula for determing water temperarture:    Multply desired dough temp by 3.  Substract from that sum the flour temp, the ambient room temp, and 18 degrees for Bosch mixer friction.  The product is the correct water temp to add.   If you are using a pre-ferment multply the desired dough temp by 4 and then subtract flour temp, the ambient room temp, and 18 degrees for Bosch mixer friction, and pre-ferment temp.  If you want to play around with time or coaxing more flavor from the flour use colder water.  My ciabatti is mixed with 39 degree F water, for instance.  Next to your Bosch and a scale, the instant thermometer is your best bread baking tool.

3)  Increase yeast amount or decrease your salt (or both) in cool weather to get the dough to rise better. 

Best-  Old Dog

 

jshep's picture
jshep

Thanks again for all these very helpful comments. I'm feeling more hopeful I can figure this out with some time and continued attention. I am not a skilled or professional baker. Just make bread for my family, so i don't really need exact recipes, but it would be wonderful to have some consistency that I could rely on!  I've used a scale for recipes that provide weights, but many of the one's I've used in the past don't, so for those I have used volume (too lazy to convert), but I'll try to do better and make the conversion to weigh out the ingrediants.  I do think a cool kitchen may have also had an impact.  I do live in a cool cliimate, so I'll be more patient with the rising and not just go by the length of time indicated in the recipe.  The detailed instructions on determining the water temp were something I've never heard at all and I don't have any idea what the desired dough temp should be... Way more complicated than anything I've ever done before, but I'm open to tryin it if I could know how to figure out what the dough temp should be.  Is it different for different types of bread?  I'll plan to try again tomorrow or the next day.  The cinamon buns I made on the weekend did rise and my husband liked them, I hope I'll have luck with whatever I try next.  I offered to bring bread to a dinner on Friday night so I hope I can produce something worthy enought to take.

Thanks again to you all,

 

Old Dog's picture
Old Dog

I've been using my Bosch for about two months now, still baking 100+ loaves of bread/week.  Just recently I've begun to be pleased with my ciabatta and basic Italian bread.  In general, I have reduced knead times when switching from the KA to the Bosch.  Strangely enough, I've also had to considerably increase the hydration of the ciabatta.  In most cases I use the Bosch near it's capacity -- 14-15 lbs of dough per batch.  This amount produces 16 small loaves of bread (12-13 oz/loaf).   The Italian bread recipe uses 3600g of KArthur Sir Galahad flour.  At this volume the dough completely covers the dough hook, creating a large mound extending a few inches above the rim of the mixing bowl.  I never add flour to change the behavior of the dough in the bowl (sticking or not sticking to the sides).  As I stated previously, adding flour -- although advised in the literature which came with the mixer -- changes the hydration level and thus the final product.  Unless you're baking a one time bread without concern for a consistant final product, the method of adding flour in that way does not make sense to me.  My scale measures in increments of 1 gram, so as long as I consistantly measure ingredients my product is consistent.  Now, transitioning from a warm summer kitchen to cool fall/winter kitchen is causing all kinds of issues.  : )  Good luck.  'Hope this helps.

jshep's picture
jshep

Success!  Made a recipe today not written for the Bosch - actually one I'd always had luck with that is in a Cuisinart cookbook, and it looks good.  I'm taking it to dinner tomorrow at friends, so we'll see how it tastes.  But it definately rose.  I think I could have even had a bit more flour as it didn't quite hold the rise - bowed out over the sides a little after puffing up beautifully in the oven.  But it is acceptable.  I couldn't quite do the recipe as you suggested because I had added the yeast to the liquid first to make sure the yeast was bubbling.  And it called for eggs, so I mixed all the liquids & activated yeast together and then added them to the dry ingrediants in the Bosch and mixed.  Is that the way you'd suggest?  I know before you'd said to add the liquid, then the flour on top and the dry yeast after that... but I didnt know what to do with eggs and butter?  When & how would you generally mix those ?(in this recipe I'd used the food processor to cut the butter into the flour mixture first).

I'd attach a photo but I don't see a way to do that, is there a way?

Thanks!