Hi, Nancy.

I have the same mixer and have been very happy with it.

I'm not entirely clear regarding the problem you are having, but here are some thoughts:

1. It sounds like you are measuring ingredients by volume. This is unreliable, so it's hard to problem solving your recipe. If you don't have a kitchen scale, get one, and use recipes that give ingredients in weights.

2. It is normal for the dough to climb up the center post and get into the grooves at the top. Unless your dough is very high hydration, this decreases as the gluten develops with mixing.

3. The mixing times given for the Bosch are way too short, in my experience. Mix until you get the degree of gluten development you want. I find with most of my breads, 6-10 minutes - sometimes longer - is required.

You have a great mixer, but it is different from your KitchenAid, and you need to get some experience with it to learn how it handles dough. Don't give up! 

David

As dmsnyder mentioned, climbing the dough hook is very common  -  depending on hydration levels, it happens with every mixer I've ever used.  One "quick fix" for this is to spray your dough hook with a spray type of oil before starting the kneading process; especially the underside and rim of the flat top portion of the dough hook.

When I have trouble with my dough stubbornly hiding under the dough hook I usually find that it's because I have too much or uneven hydration.  This morning's rye bread formula went into the mixer at about 55 - 60%$ hydration.  My ratio of rye to bread flour was a bit too high and the paddle offered me a pretty stiff dough so I added a few grams of water.  The new level of hydration gave the dough hook cause to spin in the mix (water lubricates) while the dough hid on the bottom of the mixing bowl.  It took a few minutes of hand kneading to bring the dough back to a consistency that proved acceptable to the dough hook.

The Bosch Universal is a very nice machine (wish I could afford one) so don't get mad at it.  Just take your time to learn its idiosyncrasies and you'll learn to love it.

One last note  -  throw away those measuring cups and get a good scale.   Improved accuracy in formulation will give you more consistent results in both your bread and your ability to learn how your mixer behaves under various conditions.

I do have a scale and use it regularly when making bread. About the only time I do not is when I "know" a formula very well. I have my chef's certificate and have taken professional courses from Jeffery Hamelman. I know what is involved in bread making. This machine IMHO is junk. This is not the first time I made bread in it. Frist I tried a "tried and true" recipe and even that failed miserably. The bread today roase quickly after shaping (about 30min) and with oven at proper temperature I removed the oiled plastic crap and all the loaves deflated. Let them rise to just above the rim and even moving them deflates them. None of the loaves had ANY oven spring and were all below the rim when fully backed with craggy looking tops. Flavor was quite bitter in flavor, even taking in thhe consideration of the honey in the formula. The overall hydration was 60% but the dough acted as if were 80-90% like Cibatta dough. The crumb was nice and what I sliced so far, no holes.

If you have any more ideas, I would be open to trying them. Thank you for your input.

nancy58,

Not having a Bosch machine, I can't speak to the mixing issues you are experiencing.

Your description of the finished dough's behavior, though, raises some questions.  I'm guessing that you are working with a honey-WW bread (you didn't say specifically, but you mention honey as an ingredient and a bitter flavor in the bread).  If so, is it possible that the WW flour in this batch is too old?  That could explain both the bitterness (rancid oils in the flour) and the sub-par dough characteristics.  Even if it is something that you purchased recently and is not past its use-by date, storage conditions between the mill and your kitchen might have been harmful to the flour's freshness.  The flavor, after all, wouldn't have been negatively affected by your mixer.  Similarly, a damaged flour could affect the dough's other physical characteristics.

From what you describe of the dough's rapid fermentation and subsequent deflation, I wonder if there was an excess of yeast (possible even when weighing ingredients) and/or warmer temperatures than those used by the recipe developer.  My money would be on too much yeast, since the dough expanded so rapidly, but temperature may also be playing a part.  Whatever the cause, the dough you describe is a poster child for over-proofing.  Whether the gluten was well or poorly developed during mixing / kneading / shaping, too much proofing (even if it only took 30 minutes) will produce exactly the symptoms you describe.

In addition to the other posters' advice to invest the time to learn your mixer's characteristics and capabilities, mine would be to do a forensic review of all of the other factors that could have led to such an unhappy outcome.

Best of luck with future bakes.

Paul

Is it possible that you got a "lemon"?  I would take that one back and demand to to be given a replacement, with the stipulation that if the replace works like the original, in other words, is worthless, that you get your money back.  And btw, I completely understand how you must feel. 

 HI Nancy

We had a small commercial mixer that was wired wrong or should i say that where it was being used the plug was wired wrong and it ran in the reverse direction now when that happens you really get the dough climbing the spiral hook.

I wouldn't rely to much on perscribed mixing times as they are notoriously unreliable and affected a lot by the types of dough and the hydrations of mixes. As you have had plenty of experience try to check your mix as oon as it is coming together, usually in the first minute or two of the mix  to make any of your adjustments to flour or water. I prefer to add water as it is the easier to manipulate. if you are making a dough that you are unfamiliar with try reserving a little of the water called for and adding if necesary.(it is hard to take it out) Most formulae are worked out on the flour ratio, certainly bakers percentages are so the adition of half a cup of flour can be significant in a small dough.

A  NEW trick that i have recently employed is if a dough calls for say 1.5 litres of water i fill a 2 litre container and use the amount called for  or perhaps a little less  and then make any early adjustments if it is a little dry and likely to be a bit tight, quite often you might even make one or two further small adjustments of water.   The water is on hand at the same temperature and at the end of the mixing you can go back to the container and verify exactly what went in by what is left, it can be suprising what those couple of extra adjustments add up to and you end up with an accurate record especially good if you are doing a post on what you have achieved for others to follow.

Another tip that i use almost all the time now is to quickly work out what 1% of your formula is  ie 1KG (1000g) = 10g or perhaps 500g flour then 1% = 5g and everything else can be quickly worked out from that.

If you really are not getting along with your machine and not building a happy relationship it would seem  you are in the right place to be selling a near new machine!

Regards Yozza

Whilst doing my response, PM'cool has come up with some of the other things that i was thinking about when first reading your post . The proof does seem rather rapid and the bitterness is a bit worrying, that is definately not the mixer.

regards Yozza

First off, I want to thank everyone who took the time and using their knowledge and experience to help with the problem I am having.

Second, I have decided to call the company I purchased it from (the Pleasant Hill Grain Co. and discuss my problems with them. Dependent upon their answers, I will decide to either return the machine or keep plowing through this very frustrating transition period.

I do agree that the amount of yeast used exceeded the recommended 1-2% for lean doughs, unlike enriched doughs like Brioche. One last thing, I was never able to get any kind of gluten window. I used 1/2 King Arthur Commercial White Whole wheat and 1/2 King Arthur Whole Wheat, that was just purchased last week and has an expiration date of Sept 2011, stored in the freezer.

Again, thank you for all your suggestions and I will try to disect if it was the machine, yeast flour or recipe. Happy Baking!!

I bought a Bosch Universal a few months ago.  It does take time to get used to how it works.  I agree with one of the posters who said kneading the dough takes longer than the book recommends.

Before you send back the machine, I would suggest that you use your own recipe, cut the recipe down to about two loaves worth and try that as an experiment to see how it handles a smaller amount of dough.  I watch the dough and add flour just to the point where it begins to clean the sides of the bowl.  My multigrain recipes usually come out on the sticky side, but they firm up as they proof. I do not proof in the mixer, but scrape it out into a bowl.

The book that comes with the machine is like most recipe books in that it is written for the average home cook, not bread afficiandos like people on this forum. I have looked at the recipes as something to try, but using my own tried and true methods.  They suggest that with freshly ground whole wheat that bread does not need a second rise.  I disagree.  Mine comes out better with that second rise. 

The arms should spin clockwise and some creeping up the middle is to be expected. I have noticed that too much hydration does create more dough creep, but the other problems you have experienced should not stem from the mixer.

I have made yeast doughs, sourdoughs and brioche with my machine and love it.  But I ignore their mixing times and trust my experience. The Bosch keeps going when my Kitchenaid would have keeled over.

Did you happen to measure the dough temp before and after mixing? Perhaps it heated up too much. That's the only other thing that I can think of. If that's the case, your new mixer requires colder water but I'm sure you know how to figure out DDT.

My bets are still on the formula and bad flour. Flour could have been mishandled anywhere in the transport process. Toss it and get new bags.

I called and explained step by step what had happened with my problems with my Bosch. The woman stated that I did not use enough flour and I over mixed it and it was starting to break down. I know that it was breaking down but the dough never became soft and supple. It was always craggy and rough. She gave me suggestions regarding mixing times (shorter) than what is listed in the info with the mixer. She also stated that I did not use enough flour and that I should give it another try with the new info I was given. So I will try again and see how things turn out. I will choose another recipe and let you all know how things went.

@flournwater, no need to apologize, we all have problems at times, regardless of our level of knowledge. Breads are given only a few weeks of study, to short for all the things one should know. I'm glad that all levels of knowledge are here for one another on this great site!

Nancy,

I suggest you start with a recipe you know or want to become familiar with and make it by hand. Learn how to do the stretch and fold method. Use a recipe that has at least half bread flour or All Purpose flour so you can feel and see how the flour absorbs water and becomes developed over time.  When you have seen and felt the gluten developed in your hands, seen the window pane membrane between your fingers, then you will know what to look for when using a machine to do this job.

From reading this thread, I see you have received some good advice from some very talented bakers. Still, you persist in blaming the mixer.This is akin to blaming the fuel in your car for the music on the radio.

Eric

Don't know if this gizmo would help or not, but your can purchase this item listed below:  Breadtopia sells it. 

New accessory specially designed for the Bosch Universal Plus to prevent dough from geting into the center column (drive shaft). http://www.breadtopia.com/store

When kneading dough with the Bosch Universal Plus, the dough wants to creep up the drive shaft and can get into the center column. This little gizmo prevents that from happening.

A handly "why not?" product.

Note: Only to be used with the dough hook attachment, not the wire whisks or cookie paddles.

i've used a bosch for many years.  it's been a great machine for home use.  i recently used a hobart 60 quart as i'm in the market for a commercial size mixer for my business.  we mixed about 15 pounds of flour, and i converted all ingredient weights so i was using a tried and true pizza dough recipe... i was BLOWN AWAY by the difference in the dough from mixing in the hobart.  it was the best pizza dough i've ever made and it was my first time in a commercial sized mixer.  that said, i now see what a difference the mixer makes in a particular dough, even when using the same recipe.  night and day.  had i gone from the hobart to the bosch, i'd have been disappointed, as well.  but the bosch did serve me well (and still does at home).  it will take some frustration, trial and error with mix times, batch size, etc., to get it ironed out.  i hear you, but the bosch is a good machine.  we've got one that's seen weekly use for 30 years and it's still spinning! good luck.