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Bauernbrot confusion

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copyu's picture
copyu

Bauernbrot confusion

Hi everyone,


I've been searching for a recipe that I would call "Bauernbrot". When I do find a recipe with photos I usually say to myself, "Hmmm—Nice 'Landbrot'!" Then I keep searching


The one I want doesn't have a particularly dark crumb (although that's possible to do with brewed coffee, caramel, molasses, cocoa powder, etc...) On the other hand, the loaf I want has a very dark, almost 'burnt'-looking crust. I live in Japan and one of the best rye breads I've ever tasted goes by the name Bauernbrot—it's always a torpedo shape, rather glazed looking and almost disgustingly brown—seriously—many Japanese would reject the loaf just because of the color. I rejected it too, for a while. It's obviously at least 60% rye and definitely sourdough


One day I was looking for 'Landbrot', my former favorite, but they were out of stock and there wasn't any "Muenchenerbrot", either, so I took a chance and bought the over-baked looking "Bauernbrot". It was a very pleasant surprise! I've made a similar-tasting bread from Reinhart's "Crust and Crumb", p106, in paperback [naturally-leavened rye bread (a 2-3-day build) using a 'barm starter'] but the crust color was fairly normal


Tonight, I found a German recipe for "Bauernbrot" that states the bread must bake for 60-70 minutes...is that the secret I've been missing?  [I've read that the 'real' Pumpernickel, for example, were baked after the regular breads, once the ovens had started to cool down, and that they were left in the untended ovens for several hours.]


The recipe I found tonight looks just like many other German rye breads, although it contains a couple of grated potatoes in addition to the flours


http://www.hegnachermuehle.de/Rezepte-Dateien/Rezept_Bauernbrot/rezept_bauernbrot.html


Any other tips on how to get that 'burnt umber' colored crust?


Thank you,


copyu


 


 

Sedlmaierin's picture
Sedlmaierin

Hmmm, I have two comments: one I think a Bauernbrot would definitely be a SD bread-or let's put it this way, personally I think it would taste way better if it was a SD bread.With such a substantial amount of Rye flour as in the recipe you linked, it would just make more sense to me to use SD.


Then, you can put it in the oven twice-once bake it at "falling temperatures"(like in the recipe-sometimes recipes call for going down to 180 celcius) and then  once it is baked through(meaning after about 60 minutes) take it out, reheat the oven to 260-280 celcius and stick it back in for about 10 minutes.


Check out the Doppelback I made a while ago-here


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16594/hannoversches-doppelback-photos


This version came out less dark than on other occasions, and if you wanted it darker you could always leave it in the oven for just a wee bit more. Notice how I did not bake with "fallender Hitze" which can account for the many many times that I had trouble with keeping the bread from burning!


Hope this helps!


Christina

copyu's picture
copyu

have been very helpful. Thanks a lot to you and to MiniO for the timely advice.


The only reason I got into sourdough baking, in the first place, was because I wanted to make, or at least imitate, some of my favorite rye breads. I may have come close today! Hooray!


I definitely needed to know about the "fallender Hitze" (reduction of temperature) which is not covered very thoroughly in most English-language baking books or formulas. 


I've definitely got the crust I wanted with today's bake. I cheated a bit, as I had some 'black cocoa powder' which was surprisingly powerful as a coloring agent. I used one tablespoonful in about 2 kilograms of dough and it looked almost as dark as Pumpernickel. As for the taste and the crumb, we'll just have to wait and see.


Regardless, I've learned a lot about manipulating things to suit my own purposes, so many thanks to Mini Oven and you for the valuable help.


Cheers,


copyu


 

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

Bauernbrot translates to "peasant bread" altho a Bauer is a farmer so mebbe "farmers bread"?


Landbrot translates to "country loaf" - or sort of . . .


in Germany where the whole Bauernbrot thing comes from I have never seen a topedo shaped Bauernbrot - they are round.


seems Japanese-German may have some differences.


like so many other food dishes, it's very risky to think there is one and only one "definition"


you can't even go to a German (i.e. dot de) cooking site and find one and only one recipe for [fill in the blank]


the recipe cited:  bake temp 536'F(280'C) falling to 392'F(200'C)
okay, falling when?  that detail could affect baking time, , , ,

Sedlmaierin's picture
Sedlmaierin

true, dillbert, most of the breads in germany are round-with an occasional exception. on der-sauerteig.de it says regarding falling temps: to decrease heat by 20-30 celcius every ten minutes until you reach 180 celcius-this way you simulate what happens in a stoneoven.in case either of you speak german, here's the link


http://www.der-sauerteig.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100


look under 5.1.6


c

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

A Landbrot is the norm or standard or popular loaf being sold at that particular time in any particular area.   A Bauern Brot, or farmers bread is standard found on farms in a particular area.  The names are incomplete in that specification (for lack of space or laziness) is missing.  A Linzer bauernbrot would be different from a Beriliner bauernbrot.  Each area priding itself for its local bread varieties.  Of coarse if I was in Linz selling the two varieties, I might label the local one just "landbrot"  and the other one Berliner bauernbrot. That way when talking about the brot there are two different names and less confusion -- one is "land" the other one "farmer."  So I wouldn't place too much in a name. 


The only thing you can be sure of is that in that particular bakery, there are two different names for two different breads.  So look for a recipe that uses the flours you want and describes the crumb you want, then bake it to the darkness you want.


The lighter crumb could be that the loaf contains 50% or less rye.  It could also be made from white rye flour.   Also any spices you taste (easier to detect in the crust) will help you.  How sterdy is the crumb?


The crust color comes from the oven as Christina explained very nicely.  If the surface is lightly patted with a little olive oil (like from an oiled rising bowl) the crust will also get a deep color after steaming.  Like this:



This is a 100% rye with a dark crust so fantastic tasting! 


Another clue might be the price between the two loaves.  The higher the price, the more rye flour it contains.   Rye is not cheap here (Korea) or in Japan.  On the open market, I pay $6 a kilo.  Naturally bulk at a bakery would be less, but maybe you can find out if the loaf you so desire is 10%, 20%, 30% rye or 50%.  Whether it is white rye or not is not a big deal, a little difference in crumb color is nothing compared to taste, or is it? 


You could sift out the darker larger particles (North Amer. Rye) and use them to feed your starter.  This would give you a lighter colored crumb but I'm guessing the bakery uses a large portion of wheat flour or import a mix.  They run out of mix, they run out of bread dough.  I sat next to a Kornspitz salesman on an airplane.  He told me there is an Austrian up near the Bering Strait that has a little bakery importing their flour mixes to make these famous rolls.   Cold place but they have great bread I'm sure!  I wonder what other mixes he imports?  It does make keeping stocks easier. 


We home bakers have to do the best we can but sometimes we sure are clever!  With a little combined effort, and experimenting on your part, you might be able to bake your own farmer's bread.


Mini

copyu's picture
copyu

I've just responded to Christina's advice, where I mentioned your name. I just wanted to say a personal 'thanks' to you as well.


Today I baked two loaves (about 65% coarse rye). Part of the baking time (first 30 minutes) was in covered "dutch ovens", starting from cold oven and cold dutch oven. The crust was very good—just what I was after.


I followed a strict regime of "spritzen" followed by 10 minutes of baking, reducing the temps by 10°C after each "Spritz". At 40 minutes, I removed the firmed loaves fom the dutch ovens and placed them on the baking stone (which lives permanently in my tiny gas oven) My oven's maximum temp is 250°C, so the final 10 minutes of the 70-minute bake was at 190°C.


Thank you, Mini, and Christina, for all the useful tips. I might try your 100% rye soon!


copyu


PS: The second, smaller loaf, has a beautiful sheen to its crust, whereas the first looks kind of 'dry'. The dutch oven with the small loaf in it was resting near the vent of the gas oven while waiting for the large loaf to finish...it was 'almost hot' when I picked it up. Could that make a difference, I wonder...Learning all the time!

copyu's picture
copyu

Christina, your link was most helpful and I've bookmarked it for future reference. I'm going to try the heat-reduction and be very enthusiastic about the "spritzen".


Mini, the crust on your loaf looks exactly like what I am after.


As for the terminilogy, I understand what everyone is saying, but this name is what I personally got to know as "Bauernbrot" and that's what I'm trying to reproduce. I suggested in my original post that googling "bauernbrot" didn't help at all, whether it was a German or English language website. 


I speak German, grew up in New York and lived for decades in South Australia (where many of the first settlers were from Germany) so buying rye bread was never an issue. Until a few months ago, it was possible (but not so easy) to get here in Japan, too.


Of course, the "Bauernbrot" was a whole loaf, as opposed to the usual half-loaves of other German ryes that were available, but it was not extraordinarily expensive. In taste, it was like a 60-70% rye loaf. I'm going to google "german bread spice" next, just in case there's something else I'm missing.


Thanks to all,


copyu

rhomp2002's picture
rhomp2002

Sounds like what you should be doing is looking for recipes from the area where you had this bread and check the bread recipes there.  From what I see above the breads are different by area (Linzer, etc).  That implies that what you want is the bread from a specific area so look for recipes from that area.  You would probably come closer to what you are looking for that way.

copyu's picture
copyu

Thanks, but my 'source' is "Miyuraya", a supermarket in Tokyo...definitely NOT a part of Germany, last time I checked...Heheheh!


They had authentic Pumpernickel and Schinkenbrot [in shrink-packs, imported from Germany] and very acceptable (domestically-produced) Landbrot and Muenchenerbrot. They also sold domestic "San Francisco Sourdough" which was very good and tasted at least as good as the stuff I had in SF.


I got a taste for what 'Miyuraya' called "Bauernbrot" and that's what I wanted to bake. It's just a 'name', after all...I'm aware of that.


Mini's looks like the 'real deal' but I'm not ready, perhaps, to try a 100% rye...not this April, anyway...


Thank you,


copyu

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to pick up on the ratio.  I've been using it for 55% and up.  It's a guide!  When you change the % of rye, nothing too different,  but the ideas there can really help with working and understanding rye flour.  It's turned into a rye file of sorts.


Christina and I are now into fermenting already baked sourdough bread and we like what's happening.  You might want to try something along those lines if you like your bread sour. 


Mini

copyu's picture
copyu

I was starting to think that the "all-rye" was some sort of 'target' to aim for, but I now realize, after re-visiting Reinhart and Hamelman, and reading the very valuable posts by you (and other kind folks here on TFL), that the actual quantity of rye is quite flexible.


That doesn't mean it's particularly EASY, but learning about good rye bread is a very practical and [literally] a real hands-on experience.


I'm definitely going to investigate the "altes Brot" a bit further. I've tried it in the past, with pretty good results. You 'bread scientists' are doing us all a big favor.


Thank you very much, Mini!


I've gotta go...I have to work out how to post a few pics here on TFL


copyu

copyu's picture
copyu

...and a very grateful one, too! I've just cut into today's second-baked loaf. It was baked at *slightly* shorter time and temperature than the first loaf because the oven was already warm/hot when I started baking it. I wanted to make sure that it was 'baked through', so to speak...


Anyway, I think I've finally found "my Bauernbrot" and I am sure I couldn't have done it without you guys and your help. The crust is perfect! (My wife, who arrived home late, asked me if I'd baked a chocolate cake when she saw it—seriously!)


The crumb is very fine and very even, the crust is 'chewy' without being 'tough' and it slices better than any bread I've made before.


The taste is great! I added 1Tblsp toasted flax seed and 1Tblsp caraway seed to the 2 kg dough. Grey sea salt is only 1% (instead of the usual 1.8-2%) but it still tastes great. In other words, I've found one of my favorite breads, right here at home.


This bread is fit to accompany a "Choucroute Royale", which is on my horizon in the next couple of days...A big thank-you to all who helped.


Cheers,


copyu

ehanner's picture
ehanner

The description of your bread is begging to be seen. What an interesting baking profile. I hope you have the ability to show your successful results.


Eric

copyu's picture
copyu

...in Internet Explorer/Tools/Security and migrated away from the site, but the site insists that it's still on for TFL...[???]


Shut down browsing again and see how we go!

copyu's picture
copyu

My first "real" sourdough rye breads, made about 6 months ago or more...Taste was VERY good although I may have over done the caraway seeds. This was about 35% rye, a bit higher than the 25% of the standard recipe/formula I used.


Newer bakes with modified baking profile are below. I liked the appearance and texture and especially the taste of the crust on the latest ones...



Many thanks to the bakers and computer whizzes (that's YOU, Eric!) who helped me to get the results I really wanted.


A VERY heartfelt [virtual] handshake/hug/kiss (your choice!) from me!


Thanks everyone!


copyu

copyu's picture
copyu

I have a bunch of resized photos, which I've tried to upload to PhotoBucket.com, (but Lord only knows if that has worked!)


I'm wondering how to post the same shots here...I can see that little "tree icon" which comes into the picture, somewhere...I searched TFL for tips, but that was more than 30 hours ago. After a hectic day, it's almost all forgotten.


[Update: PhotoBucket has just sent me a 'Welcome' email and my 'album' seems to have survived the trip through cyberspace OK!]


It's 8:10pm locally. Usually, on Wednesday, I'd be working from 8-11pm but my client cancelled his meeting. I might work this out tonight by myself, but any hints would be welcome!


copyu


 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Here is the link to the page that should answer your questions about how to paste images into your posts. ADDING IMAGES.


There are a few ways to do this. If you have uploaded your images to one of the free hosting sites like Photobucket, it's just a matter of pasting the image url into the first tree icon at the top of the Comment Box. Otherwise you have to follow the slightly more complicated path to upload the images from your drive to the site.


Eric

Sedlmaierin's picture
Sedlmaierin

Your bake looks great! Congrats! I am sure it tastes delicious.


Christina

copyu's picture
copyu

I made that for a "Landsmann" maybe 6 months ago and he loved it. I used a bit less than half of the dough to make a 'boule' for us. It was good, but not like yesterday's bake.


I'll keep trying...maybe for now, I'll just post links to the breads/photos I was happiest with...


http://s1041.photobucket.com/albums/b420/copyu/TFL%20uploads%20April%202010/TFL%20Uploads%20April%202010/


If you get to Photobucket, you can look at the photos in the reverse order that I chose...I don't know why that would happen.


Cheers,


copyu


 


 

Sedlmaierin's picture
Sedlmaierin

Oh ok-my comment was for the one that you named "the Chocolate cake look". And I will eagerly await the new pictures then.


C

copyu's picture
copyu

but nothing happens...


copyu


 

Sedlmaierin's picture
Sedlmaierin

So do you mean to say, when you click on the tree icon literally nothing happens-as in no little pop-up window appears?


That sucks! But at least we can see your pictures via Photobucket!


C

copyu's picture
copyu

<GRRR!>


It could be my security settings, but even a stupid error message that makes no sense at all is better than zero reults!


Thanks, Christina,


copyu

ehanner's picture
ehanner

copyu, if you go to the Photobucket site and click on the image you want to use, look on the left side of the page and scroll down to the gray box called "Share This Image". The second choice is called "Direct Link". Simply click on the text in the direct link row and the image address will be copied to your clipboard.


Now, click the "tree icon" above the comment box. You should get a pop up box with the top line asking for the image url. Right click in that box and select "Paste". That will paste the image url address from Photobucket. Now click "Insert" and the image will show on the comment page.


Eric

copyu's picture
copyu

It's a problem with this desktop computer...I think it has to do with the latest Java update for Firefox. I can't open multiple instances of Firefox, for example, since the last Java update. (This has happened before—I just can't remember how I fixed it last time.) This OS is Win XP Pro, SP3 and all updates are current.


I've tried 3 other computers and they allow me to follow your very clear and helpful instructions, but the problem is just amazingly time-consuming.


My wife's computer is a MacBook Pro and I honestly don't know how to paste via the keyboard on a Mac. (Shame on me!) My old Japanese notebook battery died and I couldn't log in to photobucket, for ages, as the calendar and clock were re-set to 1-1-2000. I couldn't do anything on that computer with all the Windows and Adobe and Zone-Alarm [yada-yada] updates that the system demanded before allowing me any other internet access and THAT was about as fast as treacle flowing. I'm recharging the battery and going to do all of the updates sequentially...


I also have a new netbook, but the screen is too tiny (at 10.1") to know what I'm actually uploading to TFL...


I'm going to try again using IE on this computer. Wish me luck!


Thank you, Eric,


copyu

copyu's picture
copyu

Clicking the tree icon does nothing!


It must be my own computer settings that are stopping this from happening...I'm sure I have a pop-up blocker switched on SOMEWHERE but which particular software is responsible? It'll take me some time to find out...


Cheers, Eric!


copyu

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Hey!  The crumb really looks like a chocolate cake!  Great lift!  The outside and inside color is about the same from what I can tell giving it the "cake look."  Have you tried toasting it?


Mini

copyu's picture
copyu

but I'm expecting to toast some tomorrow (this?) morning. It'll be very good, I think.


Thanks for all the wonderful tips and tricks.


Best,


copyu

ehanner's picture
ehanner

When you mouse over the link icons to the left of the tree, are they active? Try typing a few words and highlighting them. At the time you highlight them the icon that looks like a chain link should become active and if you click on it should give you a pop up window that asks for a URL address for the link.


What Operating System are you running and service pack?I'll try to figure out why this is happening to you with the above info.


Eric

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Great looking bread copyu.


The hand shake would be fine. :>)


Eric

copyu's picture
copyu

your hand well-and-truly shaken, sir! And that's a virtual pint of beer I owe you. too. Thank you very much, Eric.


I'm still having trouble with my desk-top settings, but the alternative machines are now working fine.


Cheers,


copyu