The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Working the dough, kneading, stretch and fold, slap and fold, slap and tickly. What every you want to call it.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Working the dough, kneading, stretch and fold, slap and fold, slap and tickly. What every you want to call it.

I made a video showing how quick working the dough can be. No more aching elbows and wrists. : -)

Google video

Photobucket version

It's fun too. This dough uses a natural leaven but you can do this with a yeasted dough too. Just mix all your ingredinets, cover the bowl with film and leave it to rest for an hour or more. I do long rises with my bread, up to 24 hours with a small amount of starter about 3% depending on the temp. This works better with wetter doughs. The one in the video is 65%, this is about a dry as you can get. No oil on the counter either. Just a clean counter top.

Some pix of bread made using this technique:

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

Pic 4

Jim

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

What a cool technique!  I'm going to have to watch that a few more times and then practice.  Most of my attempts to handle high-hydration doughs have involved either oiled or heavily floured surfaces (not to mention really gloppy hands).

 

Some questions, if I may:

- Do you work with wet hands to minimize dough sticking to them?

- Do you do this at one or more points during fermentation?  Or just once, at the end of bulk fermentation?

Thanks for posting the video.

PMcCool

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi, 
I don't work with wet hands.
You can do this just after mixing if you like for 10 seconds then repeat every 10 minutes three times then every hour for three hours. But to be really honest I find you only need to do it once if you give the dough enough of a rest. If you need to go out after mixing and you won't come back til it's time to shape then you can do this for a few minutes til it comes together just after mixing. I it is quite unbeleivable I know. But I do do this just the once.  I have to add though I've only done the ten second once with long rises. I don't know how it will affect things on a short rise time. I'd be glad of feedback. This isn't my discovery though. It's a French technique.  
Jim

breadnerd's picture
breadnerd

I saw that technique demo-d in a class. We made the instructor do it over and over as he did it very fast and it was hard to see (replaying the video is easier, ha ha!). It was a good technique for hand-kneading wet doughs.

 

I hadn't thought to combine it with a lightly mixed first initial rise like that--very cool.

 

Oh and when I have tried this at home, it was much less graceful than you and my dog would get upset when I banged the counter too hard (he thought I was throwing things!).

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Nice video.

I tweaked the permissions so that your embedded videos show up in the post. I hope that is alright with you.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Oh thanks, 
I'm glad I left it in just in case now. : -)
By the way, the French guy that showed me this techniqe pronounces 'lame' as lamb, the baby sheep. Not that it matters. : -)
Jim

qahtan's picture
qahtan

 

 Hi Jim, fancy seeing you here, very nice video's.....

                                            take care. glory,  qahtan.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi Q,
I did see your name there on the side but wasn't sure what to do, VERY new to this forum, bloggy thingy. : -) 
Nice to see you. 
Jim

qahtan's picture
qahtan

 

 There are some good bakers in here.

 I am still with my sourdough, but although it looks fine as a regular type of bread, with a not to tight a crumb, I still don't get a lot of flavour, ;-(((( But that it is working better than I ever had it in the past.

 qahtan  

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi Q,

 Have you been reading my posts at the sourdough-baking yahoo group about temperature?

 What recipe are you following?

Jim

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

I've been playing around with this kind of technique (no knead, long bulk fermentation) this week with whole wheat, and my results haven't been stellar. I'm using roughtly 450 grams whole wheat flour at 85% hydration along with 2 Tbs olive oil, 2% salt and a 5% innoculation of starter.

Flavor is great, but the rise has been problematic. On Tuesday, I tried letting it go for 18 hours before folding and shaping the dough, and it didn't rise at all. Second time around, I let it ferment for 12 hours before folding and shaping. It rose this time, but vvvveeerrry slowly (about 5 hours) and it was only about 75% of the volume I usually get when I use a more traditional kneaded approach.

This weekend, I'm going to try a higher innoculation of 8-10%. The dough has enough strength, I think -- it certainly windowpanes nicely after I fold it a few times -- but seems to lack oomph. Perhaps more starter will give it that oomph?

Any suggestions you might have would be welcome. I've used the same technique with mostly white flour sourdough, and had fantastic results. As usual, 100% whole wheat is a dfferent beast entirely. 

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

The only advice I can give is to make sure your starter is active first and foremost, otherwise you're dealing with an unknown. Then, don't shape until the dough has doubled. Then should should be home and dry. To be really honest I've never noticed much difference between the techniques as far as the bread goes. I do this simply because it's so easy and means I don't have to add more flour, water or oil to the dough. Do you know your temp when fermenting the dough. Temp can make a huge difference?
Jim

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

The house is pretty darned cool -- 64 to 68 degrees F. Wasn't at all a problem for the white flour bread, though. Starter is definitely active. I've got a whole wheat starter and, for this bread, I usually have it at 100% hydration. Easier to mix in.

It may be, though, that my starter isn't at peak. Yesterday, I'd fed the starter as late as possible the night before, but I'm sure it was past peak when I used it. This weekend, I'll feed the starter Saturday morning, set it up later that day and bake it on Sunday. We'll see how it goes.

Thanks! 

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Worked well.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi 
64-68 isn't too bad at all that's the temp I'm working at too. How much are you feeding your starter and how often. I know way too many posters suggest feeding your starter equal portions starter flour water once or twice a day, this really isn't enough if it's out on the counter for that time. If you put it back in the fridge after okay perhaps it's okay. I feed my starter by the dregs on the side of the jar then about 50g of feed or more if I know I'm going to do a big bake. I let it get bubbly then store it til I need it. This works fine with my long rises. 
Jim

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

I feed it at least once a week, and keep it really stiff in the fridge -- usually about 60 grams at 50% hydration. If I'm baking on the weekend, I'll take it out on Thursday, and feed it a couple of times at 100% before I take a few grams to build it up into the amount of starter I need, which usually takes 2-3 builds. 

So it sounds like mine is actually more freshly fed than yours is. I dunno, we'll see how it works with more starter.

My aim is to be able to bake sourdough during the week or with an overnight fermentation. I'd love to be able to mix it up,  leave it for 12 hours, then come back and let it rise for 3-4 hours before baking.

How long do you have to let yours proof after its shaped?

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Now I understand if you're making the whole wheat in the same way. As nice as the crumb looks and your daughter should be proud bless her cotten socks. : -)

Try doing the French fold, I think that's a good name for it, at about 2-6 hours after mixing. Then let the dough rise to double, then shape by folding or what ever way you normally do. It sounds like your just shaping rather than doing a stretch and fold during the rise.

Whole wheat
Whole wheat crumb

Also I punched those figures into my sourdough calc sheet and for 18C/64F I'd be baking at 16 hours there is quite a bit of wiggle room and it depends on the starter too, but that shouldn't be your problem with the ww. 

Jim

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Jim - awesome whole wheat crumb, I aspire to get a crumb that good with WW flour.  I can't wait to try out the french fold next, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Thanks. It really is so easy it's a joke. : -) I am so surprised that I'm the first one to be spreading the word on the net. Not only that it's good fun and my bread has never been better. : -) I don't know if it's a combination of my 24 hour rises and the French Fold or what but it's made baking simple and a joy. It's so nice that people are open to new things here. In the yahoo group and at rec.food.sourdough they're all so bitter they wouldn't know fun if it tickled them in the ribs. : -) I was telling people about the long rise months ago but only a couple got involved and only one person corresponded with feed back and helped be polish the timing v inoculation. Here's to the Fresh Loaf. : -) 

Jim

sewwhatsports's picture
sewwhatsports

Great video.  We learned to do this is a class with Jeffery Hamelmann that I took on sourdoughs.  I still didn't master the technique but found it very interesting.  Thanks for the informative reference. 

Rena in Delaware

sadears's picture
sadears

Jim,

 

I've watched your video several time and tried it with my failed attempt yesterday.  Turning up the sound, it sounds as though you really slap it against the counter.  I'm short and don't know if I can get the leverage necessary.  What say you?

 

Steph

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng


Slap and fold: -) is what I was going to call it. lol. I don't think you have your dough wet enough judging by your recipe but I'm guessing at a few things. Try the recipe I sent you, you could even add a little more water if your starter is really fresh. The older the starter the wetter it feels. If the dough doesn't stick add some more water. It'll taste better that way too. I don't add sugar or oil to my dough but I accept it's really common over there to do that and I'm sure it won't affect things much. Try it without once though, it's more European if that's what your after.  Jim

sadears's picture
sadears

Jim,

 

Where are you?  I'm guessing in Europe somewhere?

I had bread in Sicily and France, but it was back in 97/98, and I don't really remember the taste.

 

Steph

sadears's picture
sadears

Jim,

 

Turning up the sound, it sounds as though you really slap it against the counter.  I'm short and don't know if I can get the leverage necessary.  What say you?

 

Steph

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi Steph,

I'm in London just two hours on the train from Paris. I can be in Paris quicker than getting back home to see my Mum. If you're too short to do this French Fold you must be too short to knead. I really think you have your dough too dry, it's a mistake Mike was making for years before I convinced him to get some scales. Now he can't believe hadn't noticed before. If someone isn't there to show you how can you know. But look at my dough, is yours like that? Don't forget though this is after more than an hours rest. 
Jim

sadears's picture
sadears

By air, you must mean.  In 97/98 I went to France (a town south of Normandy, pronounced ee-ayre...theirs a military base there).  Took a train to Paris...6, count them, SIX LOOOONG hours by train.  Took the bullet back.  That only took three hours.  So much better.  Haven't had the pleasure of visiting the UK.  Want to do that when I go back to Paris to tour the Louvre.  The couple I traveled with insisted on walking, Eiffel Tower to the Arc de Triomphe to the Louvre.  By the time we got there, my feet were screaming.  After taking two years of French in high school and living with a woman who spoke French (my Canadian born Mom) I could figure things out, so I don't know if they didn't like that they couldn't read the signs or they were just too cheap to pay the $1.50 to ride the subway.  Same thing with the trip to Paris.  Too cheap to get a sleeper or ride first class.  Oh brother :-(

Anyway, as for height, I'm 5'3" and a half ;-D  I'm tall enough to knead, so I guess my question is do I need to really slap it down (as it sounds like in the video).  Of course, it could have been how the camera was set up for sound.  Do you think that, until I'm sure of myself, I should do as you mentioned before, work it for a few seconds/minutes, let it rest for 10 minutes, and repeat two more times?  Oh, and should it rest before I start slapping it around? 

 

If I can find my Bluetooth device, I'll take a picture of my starter and post it.  And how does everyone keep their containers so clean?  My looks like a dirty cement mixer.   It gets like that just by mixing water and flour.  If I can upload a picture, I guess I'll just have to be embarrassed.

When I get to your side of the pond, we should try to meet.  But, that's for another time.  Right now my time is spent finding employment AND almost as important, trying to bake a tasty loaf of bread. ;-D

Thanks,

Steph

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

We have the Eurostar, the station is just 900 paces from my flat (apartment), so I really can be there faster than getting to Liverpool. Re the dough. By far the easiest thing to do is to mix all ingredients just until they are wet, then leave for an hour or so, then do the French Fold, Slap and Fold or what every we are calling it. : -) This really is the easiest if you aren't going out. My bake yesterday I tried it from the start. I increased the hydration a tad to make it easier then set to it, it takes longer and doesn't come together quite like in the video but when I could see it was happy I put it back in the bowl. An hour later I wanted part of it for making tortillas so while I had it out I did a FF, this time it took about two folds to be like the video, not really a good exchange rate though. : -)We wash our containers for the camera. : -) Shame I couldn't have done the same for my vest. lol. If I'd know so many people were going to watch that video I'd have dressed up. : -)

Jim

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng


Bread from French Fold in Video
 

For some reason the first link in the OP above is broken and links back to another page, this is the link it should go to. 
Jim

sadears's picture
sadears

I just had a lightbulb moment.  I'm wondering if the trouble I had with this technique with wet dough was that I wasn't letting it rest enough.  I had missed the rest 1 HOUR or more.  It's an ADD thing.  I often skip important information when I read.  I had been letting it rest about 30 minutes.  Obviously not enough.  What does allowing it to rest so long do?  As long as it works, I guess it doesn't matter, I'm just wondering.

 

Steph

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Flour absorbs water, it takes time.

Jim

tony's picture
tony

And there's some chemistry, right? During the rest time gluten forms and strands of it link up, which is easier in wetter dough. That's the sense I get from reading. I hadn't been including the hour's rest before folding that jm_chng recommends, but I will certainly do it next batch.

Tony

Squid's picture
Squid

Is anyone else having trouble viewing this video?

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Jim decided to withdraw his contributions

mij.mac's picture
mij.mac

I can’t say that I blame him, I would too if you all started crying for my blood and branded me as some kind of child-eating troll? mac

Floydm's picture
Floydm

mij.mac -

I don't want to rehash what went down w/ Jim, at least not publicly. It wouldn't be fair to him if he didn't have the opportunity to voice his side of it, and, frankly, it isn't helpful to anyone to open that back up.

Let me ask you too to please be courteous on this site. Comments like this are pure flamebait: what possible reaction would you be expecting to provoke w/ a comment like this except annoyance or anger? I can't think of any.

If you can participate positively on this site that would be lovely, but if you can't I'd ask you (like I did Jim) to please take it elsewhere.

mij.mac's picture
mij.mac

I expected people to ignore it. I would if I read it. But I can't take responsibility for what others think or do. I made a little joke earlier hoping she would see the funny side but she didn't. Sorry I'm not a diplomat nor a psychologist. I can only do what I would expect others to do for me. I would expect others to respect me as a human being, and to try to help constructively in anyway that works when I'm going wrong. What more can you do? We're all different, but all want the same. We just want to be happy.

mac

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Nods. I certainly saw that you were trying to be humorous in the comment about climbing up the wall and was surprised the original poster didn't, so no worries there. But this one here looked more like flamebait to me.

Yeah, all I ask is good intentions, not trying to antagonize people. Miscommunications will always happen, particularly when you've got humor and language/cultural barriers involved, so there is little one can do about that. Perhaps one could institute a "no joking around" policy but that'd make the site an awfully dreary place.

The situation with Jim is/was unfortunate. What I saw as a request for courtesy after multiple site members complained he took as an attempt to censor him. When we couldn't resolve our differences I respectfully asked him to leave. It is too bad because he clearly is a very knowledgeable baker and had a lot to offer.

yiuma's picture
yiuma

I do not know what is going on and when I come back the video is no longer there. What a pity.I miss that.What a shame.

Mylissa20's picture
Mylissa20

Steph do you have the recipe from Jim?  I would really love to have it since I can't watch the videos here.