The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Dough Hook Kneading

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Dough Hook Kneading

I need some input on this one.  I have a KA Pro. 600 Stand Mixer. Have baked bread years ago and kneaded by hand.  Unless a type of bread that might be like a cibatta bread that you add flour table spoon by table spoon until the bread starts to breakaway from the side of the bowl.


If I use exact measurments it never does that.   If I add more flour and I mean more flour a cup or more to get a workable dough my bread just does not taste good and the crumb is lousy.  It might do a good rise but when baked not a satisfactory loaf.


I have tried different recipes and I have the same problem.  If I take it out of the mixer and try to knead by hand I still have to add lot more flour and I get the same result.


I have not tried just letting it rise and just put it into a pan and bake like you would with cake dough .


If I want to shape the bread or what ever it is to sticky to work with.   I cannot do a boule under those conditions orI do not have a good round loaf.


 Any input I will try and hope fully I will get it right.


Thanks


Mr Bob


 


 


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Bob.


I'm not clear on what kind of bread you want help with. The one you mention - Ciabatta - is a very wet dough. I wouldn't expect it to ever clear the sides of the mixer. It should be very sticky. You don't really "shape" ciabatta. You just form a loaf by stretching and folding the dough into more or less of a rectangle.


If you have another kind of bread in mind, let us see the formula that's giving you trouble.


David

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi David,


I had been on the phone  with KA for long time  with no results.  I have tried jasons cibatta bread and have good luck but that is a very stick lot of dough any way and I never added any more than exact amount of flour. .


The breads I have tried and with different recipes are mostly white.rye /wheat/Sourdough.


This recipe http://www.recipezaar.com/Old-Fashioned-Yeast-Bread-331217


I did this am with my KA pro. I used exact scale measurements. At the end of 4 cups I could see I was in deep muck again as the dough was real sticky. I would say I added another 1 1/2 cups till it just started to look like I could do some thing with it on a mat. It rose good in about a hour. I  punched it down but because of the increase in flour it had to be proofed in a larger pan. 


 I had a clay baker so I used it.  Had a good oven spring as most do for me. Baked till about 200 internal useing a instant temp.  I took it out of the clay baker looked real nice and sounded hollow as it should I guess.


 Let cool for about a hour. I cut off a end piece best part and buttered. It was not good at all. To doughy is that spelled right. I have had that problem for long time since I started to use a pro machine with a dough hook. 


When I took it out of the bowl after machine kneading it did seem to have a nice feel but I still knew it would fail taste or what ever.  Here is a pix. The crumb was light and airy even though it had a bad dough with first slice after cooling. It seemd to stick to the roof of my mouth and again like under baked.


 The crust was ok also.


So many of my loaves have had the same problem it seems.


Thanks for any help


Bob




 

mcs's picture
mcs

Hi Bob,
If you'd like to use your KA 600 for mixing and kneading, you have to make some adjustments for it to work right.  Since the hook doesn't work like a hook on a larger machine like a Hobart you have to use time to help you out in the process.  Let me give you an example.  This is just a basic white bread- 1 large loaf:


490G (3.5 cups) flour
333G  (1.4 cups) water (lukewarm)
9G (1.5 tsp) salt
3G (1 tsp) instant yeast


1.  Mix all of the ingredients for 2 minutes on speed 2.  Scrape down dough hook and sides of bowl, place hook in bowl and cover with plastic wrap for 15 minutes.


2. Put hook back on, mix for 2 minutes on speed 2.  Scrape down hook and bowl, place hook in bowl and cover with plastic wrap for 45 minutes.


3. Put hook back on, mix for 5 seconds on speed 2.  Scrape down hook and bowl, place hook in bowl and cover with plastic wrap for 45 minutes.


4. Repeat step 3.


5.  Now you've got dough you should be able to work with.  On a lightly floured surface, shape, place in a lightly oiled loaf pan, let it rise (covered) for 45-60 minutes. 


6.  Score, bake at 425 for 35 minutes or until internal temp of 204.


Steps 1 and 2 give the mixer time for the water to incorporate into the dough.
Steps 3 and 4 take the place of stretch and fold.


-Mark


http://TheBackHomeBakery.com


 

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hello Mark


Intersting comment. I am sure it is based on a lot of experience. I will try that method. I wonder if that method should be used with any type of bread?  I like many kinds and enjoy baking for my self and others. 


Thanks again


Bob

mcs's picture
mcs

Bob,
Basically, this is just a scaled down method of mixing a batch too large to do a 'stretch and fold' on.  It's also a mechanized version of dmsnyder's favorite (I believe) method referred to as 'fold in the bowl' or Hamelman's unkneaded method. 
I use this method for my baguette dough (but with different timing) since it's 75% hydration and a little sticky.  Plus if I'm mixing 40# of it, I don't need to really touch it until it goes in the fridge.
You'll also stress out your KA less with this technique as you're not really using it for that much 'on-time'.  After your first try with it, you might realize the timing needs to increase or decrease based on your batch size and how much the dough is getting worked.  If it's just one loaf you're mixing, you might need to go to 10 seconds on your short mix times.


-Mark

Gunnersbury's picture
Gunnersbury

Mark, Is there a point in your recipe at which it would be safe to refrigerate, and resume the next morning? Ideally, after placing in well-oiled pan? 


 


Gunnersbury

mcs's picture
mcs

If you're asking if the dough could be refrigerated overnight after shaping the previous day, I'll give you the short answer- I've never done that.  I know there are quite a few people here on TFL who do it that way, but I've only refrigerated it after the mixing or stretch and fold stage.  So for me, I'd be refrigerating it after step 4.  On day 2 I'd be removing it from the fridge, preshaping (if necessary), shaping, proofing, and baking.


-Mark

Gunnersbury's picture
Gunnersbury

Thank you, Mark.  I will try refrigerating after step 4.


Gunnersbury

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mark, Did something fun with your basic bread recipe (above) just the other day...


490G (3.5 cups) flour
333G  (1.4 cups) water (lukewarm)
9G (1.5 tsp) salt
3G (1 tsp) instant yeast


I added chopped garlic coated in honey.  Your recipe appeared just as I wanted to put it together.  So I used it.  I'd say I stirred in about two lightly rounded soup spoons full.   I then added about a two teaspoons (could have been a Tbs) of whole chopped up caraway seed.   Mixed it with my hands....  Let bulk ferment in a lightly oiled bowl.


To shape the dough, I spread it out into a circle and cut pizza wise into 8 portions and rolled each up from the outside edge.  Let rise.  Bake 15 minutes 220°C  7 minutes steam, then rotate pan.   At first I thought it might be too sweet but it turned out just right.   I did remove any garlic that wouldn't behave itself and stay under the dough's protective cover.



Not all made it to the cooled stage.


Mini

mcs's picture
mcs

I've never heard of the honey/garlic combination, but they sure look tasty!  Hey, if they smelled as good as they look, then there's no sense in waiting for them to cool down before you start eating.


-Mark

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I actually think the honey extracts the garlic flavor from the garlic.  It is also a way to preserve garlic for cooking, it can be pressed or chopped and mixed with honey and used as needed from a tight jar.  Potent stuff! 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Bob.


I strongly recommend that you decide on one or two kinds of bread you want to bake. Then find recipes for them that give ingredients in weights, not volume. If you don't have a kitchen scale, get one! Make those one or two kinds of bread a few times. If you are still having problems, ask for help again.


All I can say about your "failures" is that you aren't using measurements that allow for consistent results. A cup of flour can vary a lot in the actual amount, depending on how the flour gets put in the cup.


David

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hello David,


  I had thought that volume was ??? my problem. So I did purchase a scale that gives me 3-4 ways to measurements. I have looked and printed out I think some where on this web site different weights for many items for baking . I have also tried to use the printed weight for what ever if any on the package.  I try to interpolate with other with in reason. Like a 1/2  teaspoon of salt I use a measuring spoon for 1/2 . If I try to do weight I guess my scale does not like so little amount . Never tried to use the gram scale or the  KG scale.  But I have tried to be exact in measure ments.


About all I can say. I think you have seen one post where letting the dought rest might work and I will try his recipe for sure. Oh I have tried one recipe many times and same result. I agree jumping around to find one that will work might not be the way to go. But after a year I am trying to get to the bottom of my mistakes or what ever it is.


Thanks again


Bob


 


 

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Two things come to mind almost immediately.


First, you're using the dip/level/pour method for measuring ingredients.  You're unllikely to get any consistent results for identifying any hydration, fermentation/proofing issues using that method.


Second, the recipe you're using appears to me to be underbaked at 200 degrees internal temperature.  I'd shoot for something around 210.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

I am useing a scale.  It does taste like undercooked and the temp was 200. But the taste was like to much dough.


Thanks for the reply


Bob

flournwater's picture
flournwater

It's difficult to provide much help without complete information.  Your initial post reads, in part  "If I add more flour and I mean more flour a cup or more"  which lead me to believe you were not weighing your ingredients.  How about posting the recipe in its entirety  -  including oven time/temperature management information.

Dillbert's picture
Dillbert

mixing by machine requires a little patience I've found - sometimes something looks "too wet" but after 4-5 minutes it comes together.


which is contrary to your apparent problem - i.e. too wet / under baked / (?)  the pix supports the 'underbaked' theory.


did you bake it covered in the clay <whatever>?  kept covered it will tend to retain moisture - if you did have it covered the entire time, you might want to remove the cover about half way through the process.


another issue:  the recipe you gave is in cups (volume) but you mention: "I used exact scale measurements" which indicates you weighed the flour on a scale.


now, if you wanna see a real food fight, just proffer an opinion as to how much a cup of flour weighs. . . .


so if you are using x grams or y ounces per "cup" that could be "off" for the flour you are using - they _all_ differ.  (one reason to pick a brand and stick with it . . .)

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Ok I guess I will work backwards.   Yes I did use flour volume OZ. per cup of the flour I am useing.


And yes I did take the cover off about 3/4 into the baking. 


Yes I am sticking with one brand of flour . Gold Medal and better for bread flour.


Been having this problem over a year now. Birds were getting to know me by amount of bread I toss them.


Thanks for the input it is appreciated.


Bob


Now up the forum to the next good comment.


 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi Bob, what kind of water are you using?  Tap?  If so, is it filtered?  

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Tap and also filtered . I also went to a brita that wee use for drinking .


Thanks for the comment


Bob


 

LindyD's picture
LindyD

If it's a reverse osmosis filter, try using unfiltered tap water and see if that makes any difference.  


SteveB made an interesting comment here about soft water and sticky dough.


Not sure if that's your issue, but it might be worth a try.

Janknitz's picture
Janknitz

1)  Are you measuring by volume?  It's not clear as you mention volume measurements but say you use "exact scale measurements".  You should be aware that volume measurements can vary greatly, and so you may be adding more or less flour than you think you are by the way you fill and level the measuring cup.  So measuring by weight is preferable. 


EDITED TO SAY:  Sorry, I forgot to hit send and other posters had comments.  You say



"Yes I did use flour volume OZ. per cup of the flour I am useing." 



I'm still unclear.  Did you WEIGH the ingredients or use a measuring cup??? Or is that a typo and you are saying you weighed the flour using 4 oz per cup?


2)  I know the KA directions say to add flour until the dough "pulls away from the sides of the mixing bowl" while kneading.  But that doesn't work for all types of bread.  Some doughs (as David points out for the Ciabatta) are very wet and sticky and will not ever  pull away from the side, some doughs are meant to be very dry.  You need to get to know each dough (recipes will often indicate if the dough is supposed to be kneaded until "smooth and supple" or if the dough will be sticky or tacky, for example).


If you do a search here or on You Tube, you will find videos about how to handle different types of doughs.  As David mentioned, particularly wet doughs may do well with some variation of Stretch and Fold techniques and there are videos on that.  Wet doughs are particularly hard to handle, and if you search, you can find videos about how using a dough scraper will help you mange those doughs. 


3)  When a dough is particularly wet, try a "gluten cloak"  This means you sprinkle a little flour on the smooth top of the dough, and then "pull the floured surface around to the bottom and tuck it in."  See this video for AB in 5 breads, although it would work for any wet dough.  This makes a sort of "skin" that helps the dough hold its shape.  As you will see, AB in 5 doughs are VERY wet, but can still be shaped into a very nice boule. 


I really don't think the problem is with your mixer.  It just takes time and experience to gain mastry over the dough.  Your bread looks pretty good--keep at it and you will work it out.  For a learning experience, it's best to stick with one type of bread and change one thing at a time until you have mastered it. 

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Not sure if I answered so many good ideas I might have let this slip by mistake.


I try to weigh by the printed amount of OZ per cup for the flour I am using or I try to interpolate if only so many cups per 5 lbs or what ever is posted on the bag. Other ingredients same unless 1/4  1/2 teaspoon then I use what I think is ok for measurements.  


After I run out of flour for the recipe than I start to add by table spoon at a time to get to what looks like a good dough.  Then if does not look good for me I take it out of the KA andtry to finish the  kneading by hand.


I just wonder if I am not kneading long enogh with the KA.  I did a Jasons Cib. yesterday and only used a paddle. Took 1/2 the time to come together and it was perfect crumb and crust.  I use parchment to transfer to either a pizza stone or a clay bread baker.


The clay baker had a perfect looking loaf and a great spring . Bread is out standing..


With the pizza stone it had more crust and a few more holes but the taste also was out standing.


So my question when is enough kneading with the KA before I add more flour . If it is not coming away from the sides and is still soupy after the exact amount.  


 I have added flour and the bread is not good. I can taste the flour even when after baking not a good flaavor.


Jasons recipe as most for cibatta is sloppy dough. I have learned how to handle that dough with patience.  Most any one can add flour and water and beat the heck out ot it and have a good loaf with a little patience if they learn to get it from counter to oven.


Be nice to see a consistant good loaf of bread no matter what kind.


Oh well couple months I will go off and see Mike for a couple days of schooling and see if I can come up with why my dough is not so hot except for Jasons cibatta. It is bread and such a nice recipe for even a novice with patience.


Have a nice week end.   Cool here in Arizona. Almost time to leave and it is ?? starting to warm up.


Bob


www.siemann.us  


 


  

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Bob,


It's great to hear you bought a digital scale, as I recommended a while back.


Please be very careful with recipe selection.   I actually will not entertain any recipe which is not written out in a reliable way.   For me, that means in bakers% and metric.   You may feel the need to stick with ounces, although why anyone would want to work with multipliers of 14 and 16, when the metric scale is decimal, is quite beyond me.   Volume measuring is just plain unreliable.


As to dough mixing, one thing no one has pointed out is that dough is "sticky".   The original glue being flour and water; it's just something you have to get used to and be comfortable with it, and resist the temptation to add extra flour.   If you have a good recipe/formula then you should trust it.


As a matter of interest, I mix ciabatta using a paddle beater, not a hook.   I mix with 85% hydration, and the dough will always clear the bowl; it just takes a lot of mixing.


David is right; find  one or two really good recipes for what you want to make, and learn to do those well.   Start simple.   Then when you have those, move on to a couple more, and so on.   It's not easy, but you really have to have confidence in the recipe and method first.


Best wishes


Andy

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

HI Andy,


   Never tried useing just the paddle. I am almost temped to do just that and hand kneed after it looks ok to do so.


   Do not seem to have much luck with the hook.    Maybe I am not letting it knead long enough. About the time I think it is going to come to gether it startes to get to the poiunt where it looks like and it does need more flour. I just did one recipe that had to proof for 12 14 hours.  It is a good recipe and used by many and tested.  It did have a pretty good dough when I put it in the pans and a  plastic bag to proof. It is a SD recipe and a good one???  Not many changes you can do with SD. Here is what it looked like . 1/4 cup of good starter that has worked in the past and fresh. 


Looks almost like a starter????   It is  cooking any way the birds will enjoy??  This seems to be my run of luck I never know from one day to the next what will come out of the pan. It was about 14 hrs. of proofing.


Bob 


   

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Does anyone else agree that those look to be overproofed?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The rise is falling and the dough gluten looks like it is falling apart.  Bubbles popping on the surface is not good.  It should be mixed with more fresh dough to strengthen the gluten and keep up the gas production for the final rise which will take only a short time.


These two, if baked as they are, will be bricks at best.   If this was the look on a flat pan, like a pizza, it might survive a fast 12 minute bake.  But as loaves... this is overproofed.  Lovely glass pans.

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Well I agree it does look like it was over proofed.  It was a sour dough recipe that I have had luck with before or it was not bad.  Same recipe only a 1/2 cup of active starter.  It did proof about 12 hours normal was about 12-14 it did rise about tripple . I have had same rise before but never saw this before.


I did bake it. The crust as you can see was lousy looking.  It was sour big time some folks would have liked the flavor but to sour for me The crumb was fair. I expected a brick like you say but it was not that way. I gave one loaf away and they loved it.


That still did not cure my feeling lol.


Any way will see what else pops up here in the forum.


Thanks for the quick reply.


Bob

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it can raise your room temperature enough to have shorter proofing times.   Also, depending on how you feed your starter, you could be slowly speeding up your yeast.  Maybe 12 hours is just too long.


Are you doing anything with the dough between mixing and putting it into the forms?  Folds or anything?

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Just a short one. I have a SD starter that has been working . Do not use yeast at all for SD.     Only thing I can think of is on the 2 loaves I just did was it might have over proofed as mentioned. But I have done same before with same time period and never had such a gross looking loaf after proofing.  I only used a 1/4 cup of starter. It did proof covered  with a plasic bag about 12-14 hours.  It did look like a brick then next am . After baking for the birds if needed  the crumb was very sour some like it that way. Crust was ok  but not a nice looking loaf as pis shows. 1 Loaf I gave away folks were impressed. Maybe they just being nice??


Have a nice day


Bob

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Well after searching I cam up with this post . Sure sounds like my problem now for the cure?????????? But not for all my problems with baking I am sure.


But this was a good post and many intersting coments. 


http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/483188


Have a nice day


Bob