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BBA Bagel questions

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rick.c's picture
rick.c

BBA Bagel questions

Hello,


I made a batch of bagels following the recipe in BBA, using weights as measurements, (except the yeast).  I ended up with mixed results, which leads to some questions...


Why use a sponge for a dough that it retarded overnight?  Doesn't this seem redundant?


I split the batch into two, I made 1/2 plain, topped with onion, poppyseed and salt, the other 1/2 cinn & raisin.  After rising for 1 hour, I refridgerated them overnight and proceeded to boil & bake.  The plain (topped) bagels fell flat somewhere between putting them into the water to boil and putting them into the oven.  They looked fine when I put them into the water, more than 1" thick but would make better bagel chips than bagels, really, maybe 1/2" thick.  I think they were overproofed, they have nearly baguette like crumb, any other thoughts?


The cin & raisin were better, I added extra yeast pr the recipe.  I tried to add the cin & sugar late in the kneading (by hand) to leave streaks in the dough.  I took forever to get rid of the pocket this created, plus a decent amount of extra flour to get rid of the stickyness.  But, they held their shape and had a more bagel-like crumb, and streaks!


Though I was happy with the results for the first time, both the bagels had a wicked chewy crust that was thin.  Like, a balloon coating, that thin, not quite that chewy.  I would rather have a thicker crust that was about the same overall chewyness.  Any ideas on how to get that?  (boil longer, more or less baking soda in the water???)  I did boil them for 1.5 min each side.


Thanks in advance!


Rick

Elagins's picture
Elagins

because of the retardation, bagels only need about 1/3 to 1/4 the normal amount of yeast for a standard bread recipe (1% instant, 2% fresh). other things to look at would be hydration and amount of boiling time.


i also find Reinhart's use of preferment in the bagel recipe somewhat redundant, but it makes sense when you remember that he's in love with preferments and uses them in virtually every bread he's ever published. not that that's a bad thing: he's dedicated to unlocking all the flavor he can from flour, and preferments are the best way to do that.


to thicken the crust, simply boil longer. as i recall, Reinhart calls for about 1-2 minutes. i generally put my bagels into the water right from the fridge and boil them until they float, which can be as long as 3 or 4 minutes, depending on the yeast activity, and that gives me the uber-chewy crust i've loved since my childhood in Brooklyn.


Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

mountaineer cookie company's picture
mountaineer coo...

I make bagels for a local cafe, I don't do any pre ferment. 


Mix dough, rest 5 min, shape rest 20 min, Boil 1 min on each side, bake 425 for 20 min.  Perfect everytime.  I will try and post a tutorial sometime.

sybram's picture
sybram

Woohoo!  Git 'er done!  I would love to try your formula for these bagels.


Syb

sybram's picture
sybram

Woohoo!  Git 'er done!  I would love to try your formula for these bagels.


Syb

sybram's picture
sybram

Mountainneer..  would you share your oh, so fast bagel formula?  I would love to try them.


Syb

mountaineer cookie company's picture
mountaineer coo...

I will do a post the next time I get a bagel order.  Witch should be this week, right now I've got half a ton of Biscotti and Muffins to make.

sybram's picture
sybram

Thanks, Mountaineer.  I'll be looking fo it.  Syb

loveysangel's picture
loveysangel

Mountaineer, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! I made PERFECT bagels using your method. They are gorgeous. The ones i made before I tried your method kept flopping. I figured out why, I had let them rise too much. basically I had rolls with holes and they would fall flat when boiled. I will not use any other method but yours from now on :)  Thank you again.

mountaineer cookie company's picture
mountaineer coo...

They are so easy this way (my husband, who doesn't cook at all) can even make them. 

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

Bagels are always part of introductory baking courses here, and many of our students have had similar experiences in the past.  We use Hamelman's base dough recipe, minus the elaborate cooling and baking methods.  While I agree that a lower amount of yeast is important and a very stiff dough is key, problems that lead to deflated bagels usually have to do with retardation conditions in my experience.  First off, the cooler or refrigerator must be between 39-40 F or the dough will overproof.  A good, accurate fridge thermometer (around $25) is very important here; not the sort found in box stores.  Secondly, the pan of bagels (say six on a half sheet), should be taken directly from the cooler to the already boiling water.  Boil them all at once.  Don't let them warm up at all.  If you have another sheet, leave it in the fridge until the first one is finished.  There are as many variables with bagels as with other breads, but your results suggest temperature management is the issue.


Timing of the boil should begin after the water has returned to the rolling boil.  A thicker crust can be gotten from a longer boil, but I wouldn't go any more than two minutes.  We use malt syrup in the water (nice color), but baking soda should work, so will honey.  Boiled water bagels always have a close crumb.  Egg or Montreal style bagels less so.


CanuckJim

Dwayne's picture
Dwayne

Last week I made Bagels from Peter's new book ABED and used malt syrup for the first time.  The malt sure added a nice flovor and made for a very smooth dough (however I may have used a bit too much).


 


My baked bagels lost some of thier height, so I'm guessing that I also must have over proofed them.  I was thinking that it had to do with the time it took taking them out of the water, putting on the topping and getting them in the oven.  Do I need to hurry here or not.


 


Thanks,


Dwayne

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

Dwayne,


The bagels should puff enormously in the boiling water.  They will deflate a bit while they're cooling and toppings are applied.  I'd work quickly, though, topping them as soon as they're cool enough to handle. However, I've found that a slight bit of deflation is always made back up in the oven.  This is particularly true of a wood fired oven with a masonry deck (not air) temp of 550 F.  At this level, they take eighteen minutes flat.


CJ