Couple of questions.

Do you hand knead or machine knead?

Do you do the pane test with the dough during/after kneading?

Do you completely punch down the dough after the first rise?

Gordon

Do you hand knead or machine knead?
- Kitchen Aid standing mixer, knead about 3 minutes in first speed while adding preferment in chunks, and then 5-8 minutes on a second. Sometimes I play with autolize, the dough getting ready faster, but it doesn't resolve the problem

Do you do the pane test with the dough during/after kneading?
- I don't succeed in that - I use fine ground 100% whole wheat (13.8% proteins). When I make it with 75-80% of water it's terribly sticky, and feels heavy, not soft at all, kinda heavy thick clay.

Do you completely punch down the dough after the first rise?
- I "turn" it twice, after 50-60 minutes, letter like, as described in many books, trying not to degass it too much (I want the holes), so the prinary fermentation takes, in total, about 3 hours.

Doronin,

Sorry for the delay in answering. Just started a second job (part-time) at a local grocery store bakery. Unfortunately we don't mix any dough there. We use the bake-off method. Which is the next best method. But I get the experience of proofing and baking the loaves.

The only difference I see right off the bat from my process is I mix mine a little longer. But I am no expert yet. I also use a KitchenAid mixer now. Just picked one up at Wally World (Wal-Mart). A 4-1/2 quart Classic model.

When you mix your dough in the mixer, does it form a ball and start to roll around in the bowl? I learned this from going to a local artisan bakery and watching them mix up dough in a big Hobart. Same principle at home. Only on a smaller scale. You don't want to let it continue this for very long. But it seems to help me stretch-fold and shape the dough easier, even if it is a wet dough.

One sign that you have overmixed the dough is that it gets sticky and you can't add enough flour to overcome it from what I have heard. You just have to start over.

One thing you can try when you do the pane test is to wet or flour your fingers before stretching/testing the dough for gluten development.

Hope this helps.

Gordon