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Help! (Suas' Honey Whole Wheat: Gloppy WW dough)

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Help! (Suas' Honey Whole Wheat: Gloppy WW dough)

I'm in the process of making the Honey Whole Wheat pan bread from Advanced Bread and Pastry. It uses a firm levain and instant yeast. It is a 100% whole wheat, except for a little bread flour in the levain. It is also interesting in that Suas specifies a double hydration technique, mixing initially with about 80% of the water and adding the rest slowly after the gluten is somewhat developed.


Suas' dough is 80% hydration and, after all the water is added, is extremely gloppy. I mixed for maybe 10 minutes. There was some gluten development, but the dough was still extremely slack and sticky. It didn't come close to cleaning the sides of the bowl in my KitchenAid mixer.


Suas' formula calls for a 2 hour bulk fermentation followed by shaping and proofing, but, because the dough is so slack, I'm adding a couple of stretch and folds. I've just done the first S&F, and am starting to believe I will actually be able to form a loaf from this dough after another 45 minutes and another S&F.


Has anyone else made this bread or worked with another gloppy WW dough? Any experience to share?


David

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I have worked with other whole wheat recipes and it does take a while to absorb the extra moisture.I'm sure it will benefit from the extra stretch and folds. I'm not so sure the dough will be firmer, though, given that hydration level.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

At this point, the loaf is proofing. 


I did do a second S&F and fermented another 30 minutes or so (total fermentation of about 2 1/2 hours). By the time I formed the loaf, the dough was quite tacky but very manageable - not at all difficult to form into a pan loaf.


I'm eager to see how it turns out. I'm definitely wanting a nice honey whole wheat in my repertoire to use for sandwiches and toast. 


David

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Glad to hear that, David!


I haven't baked this bread myself, but when you think about it, it shouldn't be very far from Hamelman's miche, should it? Now that's coming in at around 82% hydration, with high-extraction flour. It's suggested in the recipe that if high-extraction flour is not available, one could replace it by roughly 90% whole-wheat flour and 10% bread flour. Does Suas' recipe remind you of a miche in terms of dough strength/stickiness?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I usually make miches with First Clear Flour. It is a sticky dough, but no where near as sticky as the Honey WW.


BTW, the loaf baked beautifully. I haven't sliced it yet, but the dough felt nice and soft-spongy when I put it in the oven.


I'll post on it after slicing. (Probably tomorrow).


David

inlovewbread's picture
inlovewbread

Hi David,


You might find this thread interesting- they are discussing dough hydration in Suas' AB & P. I realize you are saying that the hydration seemed too high, but there are some comments on this thread that may pertain to your situation with your pan bread.


Hope your loaf turns out well! Would you be so kind as to post your results? I just asked a question about a sandwich loaf and am looking for a good PB & J type ww bread.


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I certainly do not think the hydration was too low in the Honey WW formula!


The dough was nice by time to form it came around, and the baked loaf looks and smells great. I will post on it after slicing and tasting.


David

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

Hi David,


My experience and observation with the double hydration method is that after the first batch of water has been added to the bread dough, one must wait until the gluten has somewhat develop.  After that, the second batch of water can be slowly added into the bread dough.  At this stage, the bread dough can still absorb the extra water and still maintain its gluten.  Just my 2 cents.


Carl

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Carl.


I mixed the dough for about 3 minutes before adding the additional water gradually. Perhaps I should have mixed longer or employed an autolyse. 


Can you say what percent of the gluten development should be accomplished before adding the reserved water? This is the first time I've used this technique.


David

CarlSF's picture
CarlSF

David,


I would say when the gluten has been 85 to 90% developed, then you can add the second batch of water to the bread dough.  The double hydration method can also be used for making ciabattas as well.  Hope this is helpful for you.


Carl

Nathan's picture
Nathan

Hello David,


As I read your post I was curious to know what the dough looked like after the first 3 minutes of kneading, i.e. before you added the remaining water. I've made DiMuzio's formula for honey whole-wheat bread several times and have been very pleased with the results. His formula uses a 60% hydration, which seems quite low at first for a 100%-whole wheat bread, but it also calls for 23% honey, which helps hydrate. How much honey does Suas use? I always notice that even low percentages of honey gives the dough a tacky/sticky feel, though I'm sure you've also noticed this.


As I have never tried the double-hydration technique -mostly because I don't own a mixer- I can't help you there.


I hope everything worked out for you. Let us know how it turned out.


Nathan

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

After initial mixing, the dough looked like a thick batter. I now believe I should have mixed it a lot more before additng the rest of the water. You make a good point about the honey. I can't recall the exact amount in the formula, but it was quite a bit.


David

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Hi David,


I'm not familiar with Michel's formula for HWW, but I think your instincts about mixing longer before introducing the extra water are correct.


I generally employ double-hydration with superhydrated Italian doughs like Pugliese or Ciabatta.  In those instances, I develop the gluten about 90-95% of the way, as has already been suggested, after adding only enough water to create a consistency similar to a baguette dough -- moderately wet, but not gloppy.  Then I'll reduce the mixer speed back down to low and drizzle in the extra water until completely absorbed.  And those are "improved mix" doughs that are only about half developed before being removed from the mixer.


My Honey Whole Wheat formula is designed to be a pan bread.  With a dough being made into panned sandwich-style bread, it's more typical to develop the gluten completely (an "intensive mix"), and mix time is considerably longer.  But pan breads are usually not wet, and that's the reason mine is hydrated at a fairly low level, with no need for any unusual mixing method.  BTW, if you want to figure how much water is in your honey, it can vary, but around 20% of the weight of honey is usually attributable to water.


--Dan DiMuzio

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I was surprised by how wet the dough was and by Suas' using the double hydration technique, but the bread is delicious. Matter of fact, I just had some for breakfast. It has great keeping quality, with the pre-ferment and high hydration.


Suas' formula calls for adding almost all the water (about 80%) initially and adding the rest after some mixing. Is that "standard," or are there some general guidelines for how much of the water is reserved when using double hydration? 


I have your book, but have not made your HWW. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'll take a look at it. This is a type of bread I really like for toast and sandwiches.


David

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

I pulled down my copy of Michel's book and looked at both the formula for their HWW and their illustrated procedure for doing the double hydration method, on p68 and 69.


I still think you just need to mix longer before adding more water to get what you want, but there are a couple of related diddies I'll get to in a second.  Look at the first photo toward the top of page 68.  You can see (even though the photo is small) that the white dough in the bottom of the mixer bowl is already pretty well developed before they start adding the remaining water in increments.  That's the thing you want to be aiming for in determining how much water to initially hold back.


When mixing Pugliese or Ciabatta, I generally add enough water initially to make a 67-68% hydration (King Arthur AP flour), mix as I would for a baguette dough, and when the gluten is almost where I want it, I reduce speed to low and drizzile in any water remaining.  But I'm not obligated to add it all -- if I see that there might be too much water, I'll hold back some, weigh it, and record that in my notes.  If the flour is a little old, it may have lost moisture, and I might need to add more water than a formula calls for.  Happens to me all the time.  And no -- I don't always guess correctly.


Until you're familiar with the absorbency characteristics of your particular flour, you won't have a definite hydration figure to begin your mix.  You'll have to guess, and take notes, and tweak things the second or third time you make it, if necessary.


Whole wheat flour, of course, is completely different in its initial mixing characteristics, and will require a first-stage hydration much higher than 67%.  But you still want to mimic that way of thinking, more or less.  Add enough water at first to make a moderately wet dough, and use your own judgement about what you're seeing before you.  Record the weight you finally arrive at for a first-stage hydration, and you won't have to worry about it next time.


I think an autolyse would help here if the dough otherwise seems too granular at first and doesn't want to come together easily.  I'm also wondering if SteveB's method of dealing with KitchenAid type mixers might be of some use in getting the dough mixed more efficiently.  Maybe he'll swoop in here and lend a hand.


Sorry I can't be more precise about how much water to hold back.  It all depends upon how absorbent your flour is.  Good luck next time.


Oh -- Nathan was kind in his description of my HWW formula, but I should warn you that it's very sweet.  My former students seemed to love it.  Honestly, that level of sweetness isn't my cup of tea, but it goes over so well with many customers that I included it in my book as is.  You could reduce the honey percentage if you like, and just figure how much water you need to put back in for the same consistency.  If you use less Honey, you can probably bump up the baking temperature by 5-10 degreesF as well.


--Dan DiMuzio

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Dan.


I am entirely comfortable with the "lack of precision." Your description of the goals and procedures is all I need. I like the suggestion to autolyse the WW dough. Suas doesn't specify an autolyse in some breads where I think it would be applicable. For example, I have a batch of his San Francisco Sourdough fermenting right now. He didn't call for an autolyse, but I did one for 30 minutes or so before adding the salt and the firm starter to the dough.


I will take a look at your HWW formula. It won't get made this weekend, since I have 3 other breads going already (SF SD, as above, Suas' Sourdough Multigrain and my own San Joaquin Sourdough). As we say, "So many breads. So little freezer space." ;-)


This isn't to mention other cooking projects, and, certainly, not to mention work for my "day job."


David

Arbyg's picture
Arbyg

Try full window pane at 67% hydration then add rest of water gradually over a few minutes. Good luck! Paddle attachment works but that encourages over mixing.