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Seeking assistance on low gluten bagels

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Stefan's picture
Stefan

Seeking assistance on low gluten bagels


 


Hi Fresh Loaf Forum,

I'm looking for advice to help me with my efforts to make a low gluten bagel.

I have a wheat gluten allergy, but some low gluten wheat flour does not cause problems (semolina and durum are examples, I think, as I can eat spaghetti pasta).  A few years ago, I found that Bageltime Bagels did not cause an allergy reaction.  So far, my thinking is that it was because they used Bleached Enriched Flour when making them.  So, when Bageltime Bagels was bought out by Fleisher's Bagels, and discontinued the Bageltime Bagel, I thought:  why not try to reproduce that bagel myself?

Well, it didn't take long for me to discover that there are many ingredients used in the mass production process for bagel making that are not easy to find for the home baker.  Still, I have persisted in trying to make a low gluten bagel.  As a short summary, I followed the recipe and procedures of John D. Lee's version of bagels, with my own ingredient preferences-and got some acceptable bagels, but not the puffy on the inside kind.

Here's my key insight, and my question:  On my latest effort, I made the mistake of using barley malt syrup (because I had used malt powder-from King Arthur Flour-and it did not affect me).  On a positive note, the bagels puffed up in an excellent way in the oven, and the texture was just lite crunchy on the outside and nice airy "bounce" on the inside.  Unfortunately, the barley malt syrup has gluten in ways that causes allergies for me.  The question:  is there an enzyme or some other kind of conditioner or ingredient I can substitute for the barley malt syrup effect, so I can get that same puff and bounce?  Here's what I'm using for ingredients now:

4 cups Pillsbury All Purpose Flour
1 1/4-1 1/2 cups warm water
2 1/4 tsp. yeast
1 1/2 tbs. barley malt syrup (has to be replaced)
½ tbs. molasses
1 tbs. canola oil
2/3 tsp. ginger
and 2tbs. malt powder in the simmering water when I boil the bagels before baking

I hope that someone can assist me in my quest.  It's true, there are gluten free bagels recipes on the Internet, and I could go that route.  But first, I'd like to know if the low gluten route could work.

With Kind Regards,

Stefan

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

i would say that you need to see a doctor and get re-evaluated and i 'm not trying to be a funny guy


pasta  made from durum and semolina flours have the highest proten and as a result have the highest gluten forming potental of all flours withn the exception of gluten flour its self


while malt syrup has proten but no gluten that i know of


so your problem could be something other than gluten


 also the formula you posted is not understandable and not mixable


whats up with the improper fractions


21 /4 tsp yeast?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Looks more like a grass allergies but needs to be investigated. 


Welcome to the site, Stefan! Guess you'll have to come up with another question.  You've stumped at least two of us but there are hundreds here.   It would be good to know, then you can substitute easily.  Try 1/4 to 1/2 vit C tablet.  Crush and mix into the liquids.  Doesn't Pillsbury AP already contain some malt?  What's written on the package?


Norm,  I think that's 2 1/4 tsp yeast.  A tiny space is needed.    It can be figured out.  It's sort of a math and logic tease.


Mini


 

nbicomputers's picture
nbicomputers

2 & 1/4 tsp NOW i see it!!!


 

Stefan's picture
Stefan

 Thanks to Norm and Mini for commenting.

I have been using foods I can eat, and avoiding ones that cause me difficulty; haven't been to a doctor, and don't intend to go.  I may not have made an exact science of investigating what the contents are of what works and what doesn't, but it hasn't really been a problem-except in these bagel experiments.


I have read the ingredients on the Pillsbury flour, and there is barley malt in there, but again-from tables I found on the Internet, it seemed that these kind of flours were low gluten.  Whether they are or not, I don't have any problems using them.


Even so, I'm going to try to go forward from here without making what my allergies are or aren't the topic, and just ask if there is someone who knows what barley malt syrup does in a bagel recipe like mine, and whether there is something else-- some enzyme or conditioner-- that can also do that.


I apologize for presenting my question in a way that was more like a logic puzzle than a real life question.  It's possible that I have not yet arrived at enough knowledge to ask the question correctly.  I guess I'll just keep trying, and see what help I can find.


With Kind Regards,

Stefan

LLM777's picture
LLM777

I think if you tried other flours with "tolerable gluten" first (kamut and spelt) that may lower the gluten content of the bagels. You won't get as high a rise but as least there will be some rise without completely redoing the recipe. Otherwise, you'll need to go to the grains that have no gluten (possibly rice, buckwheat, millet, etc.) which you will need more additions to your ingredients than what you have. Also, I've been reading that sourdough could be a choice. There is a growing community on TFL that is dealing with no gluten baking so you could do a search on the website and see what their recipes entail. You'll probably need to invest in a grinder at some point.


The barley malt syrup (because barley has a lot of gluten) can be replaced easily by honey and the malt powder replaced by baking soda.


Other than that it looks like you have to do some experimenting on which flours will give you the best results.


Julia Child has a very good episode with baking bagels that could give you some more information to get as high a rise as possible. Search her website, I think it would be worth it.


Hope that helps some. :)

smaxson's picture
smaxson

Durum, spelt and kamut are all low gluten (durum is high in proteins other than gluten, which is why it is "high protein", kamut and spelt have low gluten with enough other proteins to have total protein comparable to all purpose wheat flour). Your problem sounds like a "multiple insults" thing, where the small amount of gluten in pasta is okay, but a bit more gluten plus other allergens (like yeast?) is too much. Check the isles at a local health food store for flours made from these. Get a good thick and dark wildflower honey for sweetener, as the aroma and taste will compensate for the loss of the malt taste (malt syrup is more than sweetener). Experiment with powdered leavens like baking powder and soda (be gentle!!!) coupled with the low gluten flours and yeast and you may come up with a passable bagel with good "chew". The low gluten flours are fussy about the amount of gluten development: where over working a bread dough can result in a hockey puck, overworking kamut, spelt or durum can break down the gluten structure (think cake donut texture if you get a decent rise). Kamut and spelt are both flat bread flours (think tortillas), so if done right can produce a decent "tooth", but a yellow durum based bagel might be exotic so as to be interesting too.

LLM777's picture
LLM777

I appreciate your taking the time to post and help Stefan. We all know that we're here just to give our opinion on bread, that's all, bread. Some people appreciate it and others do not. I'm sure Stefan can use our advice to improve his bagels.

Stefan's picture
Stefan

 Hi,

I very much appreciate the discussion of durum, kamut and spelt, the other grain suggestions, and the gluten development discussion.  And I appreciate the wildflower honey suggestion, the baking powder and baking soda suggestions-and the durum flour suggestion.  I will also explore the Julia Child website.

I have done some research, and I am willing to do more.  I understand that it takes perseverance and patience to have the experiences, identify the questions, and find helpful people-even when the goal is one many other people have already achieved.  My quest is a little out of the ordinary; and so it is understandable that there are a few more obstacles to success.

While I am very grateful for the kind and courteous assistance I found here, these bagel experiments are something I work on once every 2 or 3 months (not a high priority).  So, I think that for now, I will courteously and respectfully close out my account.  Maybe after some time I'll have another visit.

With Kind Regards,

Stefan

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Hi Stefan,


If you are requesting to close your account because of the one less-than-kind-or-courteous response you received I hope you will reconsider.  Other commmunity members complained about that comment as well and it has been removed. 


The community member who made that comment, though a knowledgeable baker, has been warned repeatedly in private about not treating other members here with respect and courtesy.  I am warning him publicly here that I will suspend his account the next time an incident like this occurs.  It is sad that it has come to this, but I've had it.

Stefan's picture
Stefan

 Thanks for the steps you have taken.  I'll keep the account for now.  However, I do also have to attend to other matters for a while.  I think there can be closure on this thread, and I'll visit again before my next bagel experiment. 

With Kind Regards,

Stefan   

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Understood.  Good luck with your bagels!