The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

PR's Panettone...

amazonium's picture
amazonium

PR's Panettone...

So I finally got all the ingredients for PR's panettone and I made 2 loaves this weekend. The aroma was heavenly but I wasn't quite happy with the crumb- it wasn't that feathery shreddy light buttery thing I was looking for. Not being one who is easily daunted I am trying the panettone recipe from Foolish Poolish (thank you FP!!). I read and re-read the recipe until it finally started to make sense. Yes, it is time-consuming but hopefully it will be worth it in the end. I am sitting here at 11:15 pm, waiting until 1am when I have to make the first dough using my pasta madre that I oh so lovingly fed 3 times today...Unfortunately I messed up my timing (should have re-re-read the recipe!) but I am willing to sacrifice a few hours of sleep all in the name of making a superb loaf of bread! My patients won't mind if I am a tad bleary-eyed tomorrow, will they?? I am sharing this with you guys because who else would understand doing such a nutty thing as spending 3 days of time and effort just to make bread??? I made good use of my waiting time tonight, though- I made a HUGE batch of cappucino-hazelnut cookies to take to work tomorrow. Yawnnnnnnnnn. Stay tuned! If I can ever figure out how to upload pics here I will share :-)


Amaz the Crazy Baker

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Bless your heart! I remember losing a fair amount of sleep myself making panettone last year.



If you have a bread mixer, I strongly recommend using it!- it makes the whole process a lot easier (if not shorter). If you are using one then when you're mixing the first dough you can mix the flour, water, egg and starter in one go. In the final dough you can mix the first dough, flour, water, egg in one go also. In both cases, make sure you develop the gluten well before adding sugar and/or butter...which should be added slooooowly, a little at a time.


Wishing you all the best. Let us know how it goes!



Cheers,


FP

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I use my trusty 20-year old KA. I am up to the point in the recipe where I mix the pasta madre with the first dough- I am sure you know what I am talking about even if I don't- LOL! I used the waiting time to blog about my experience- to remind me what to do and what not to do. I use my blog as a memory jogger, so to speak. I really want to be faithful to the recipe so sleep be damned! One question- should I use All Trumps and regular AP unbleached for the flours for the next doughs? Or just AT- would that be better? You mentioned a Canadian hard wheat and 00 Ital flour (which is impossible to find in my aream trust me!). Any advice is greatly appreciated. And thank you again for sharing the recipe. I will certainly let you know how successful this turns out to be!


Amaz

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

I don't think you need to go 100% all trumps. I think a blend would be fine. If it seems to be a little on the soft side - go with all AT in the final dough.


If you go with 100% AT throughout - you may find you need to add a (v) little more water. The dough should be soft and on the tacky side but not pancake batter!


FP

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I am ready to start measuring the flour so your post came just in time! I will use a blend, More later!!!! Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn


Amaz

amazonium's picture
amazonium

Okay, FP- I don't know how you EVER did all that by hand- whew! The dough is silky, beautiful, and resting in a quiet warm place. Isn't dough a wonderful mysterious thing? It went from rebuffing the butter to finally acquiescing and taking it all in, making a glistening ball that would make a lovely pillow...okay, so maybe I am sleep-deprived and a little delirious now...A couple of questions: what do I do with the leftover madre? I covered it with cling film and left it on the counter. For my next batch of panettone at what point do I start since I have pasta madre already?? I must sound like a dolt, but as I tell my patients- there are no stupid questions- lol. If one doesn't ask, then one never learns, eh? I cannot wait until tomorrow when I can complete the bread- how exciting this is! Thank yo so much!


Amaz.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

I think that depends on how much pasta madre you have left and how much sleep you want!


You *could* feed it once now at a ratio of  1:1:0.5 (sweet starter:flour:water) and allow it to sit for about 1 hour before putting it in the refrigerator.


When you're ready, take it out of the refrigerator and allow it to come up to room temperature and also fully risen. Feed every four hours, two or three times, like before, - be sure to reserve enough each time so that you end up with enough to make the first dough.


To be honest it doesn't take that much longer to start from scratch (ie storage starter) for the next batch.


Have fun tomorrow with the final dough. I can empathize with the sleep deprivation being in the middle of a 2 day dough build myself (different formula - different bread)!


Cheers,


FP


 


 


 

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I made the dough, intending to go straight to bed but unfortunately I googled pasta madre and got led astray into Youtube Italian bread-making. I could understand only a few words but it was fascinating stuff. I got to bed at 2:15, alarm went off at 6am and I am up and waiting for coffee to perk- oh gee, that shows my age, doesn't it- I mean 'drip'...The dough is slowly rising and according to the schedule I will use my lunch hour to run home and make the final dough. Meanwhile I need to get my fruit mascerating. You wouldn't believe the dreams I had!


Amaz. 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

You've got some serious dedication!


FWIW I didn't mascerate the fruit - just used it dried. I think if the fruit is too wet it will probably cause the dough to disintegrate. No harm in a few tbsp of fruit juice, citrus zest or maybe even rum/brandy - but not a full-on soak.


Cheers,


FP


PS As far as terminology goes - and just to confuse things a little more (!)  Pasta Madre usually refers to the starter that is kept in storage and refreshed. Livieto or Biga Naturale is used to refer to the starter that goes into the first dough. It gets confusing which is why I often refer to it as 'italian sweet starter' (ie the dough that's been refreshed several times to keep it active but mild).

amazonium's picture
amazonium

Thanks for clarifying that. I used booze-soaked fruit in PR's version and I was careful to let it drain until the fruit was almost dry with no ill effects to the dough. Your dough is quite a bit more delicate though, so we shall see. I put the Mother in the frig to deal with later (when I can think straight again!). Yes, I am like a dog with a bone when I set my mind to doing something correctly. I wanted to be faithful to the recipe so I would know what to do next time. It isn't nearly so intimidating once you get into the actual process. Still, my time management skills SUCK! We have a full kitchen at the clinic so I may have to bake it there. The aroma will drive the patients in the waiting room NUTS! You rock, FP!


Amaz

b_elgar's picture
b_elgar

King Arthur Flour has an adapted recipe for an "American" panettone that uses a biga.  It yields a luscious loaf, although non-traditional in shape. It is also quite flexible, which worked out well for us, as we do not care for the standard candied fruits that are usually called for. I guess by the time all those changes are made, one may be stretching it to call it panettone....


I made  it last year,  Using slivered almonds, dried cherries and craisins.


The recipe is here:


http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/american-style-panettone-recipe


Boron

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Almonds, cherries and craisins sounds like a delightful combination. If I make panettone this year I think I'll probably change it up a bit also - thinking along the lines of something chocolatey. 

b_elgar's picture
b_elgar

If you'd like to see how it turned out, I have some photos I posted late last year on flickr...


 


Boron


 


http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/sets/72157610111990420/

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I saw that one and may try it as well. I don't care for candied fruit either, so I used dried fruits and cut up the apricots into similar-sized pieces as the cranberries, golden raisins, and cherries. I am thinking of even trying the not-fruitcake they have posted on their website.


Amaz.

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I am stuck at work and the scheduled time for the final dough to be mixed is at 1pm- in 2 minutes...I don't get home now for another 4.5 hours- will it hurt for the dough to keep rising? It was rising verrrrry slowly this morning when I checked it before I left for work. Gosh, I would HATE to screw it up now!


Amaz.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Hey no worries - nothing you can do about it right now - so let's just hope for the best. I think it will be OK. 


FP


 

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I didn't see where to add the salt and flavorings ( I used vanilla crush and fiori di sicilia) I added all the above to the final dough when I mixed it with the other dough- sheesh I can't even remember what number is which- LOL!. So you might want to clarify that point in your posting. The dough is soft and lovely and doing its 20-minute rest before I start adding the last butter and honey. Is there a reason the honey is added separately? I have read that the yeast will feed on honey but not regular sugar. So I assume that the addition of honey is to give it something on which to feed while it does its last proofing?? Hey my timer is going off- time to do the final mixing- woohoo! More later!


Amaz the Exhausted....

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Yep you got it - add the vanilla and salt with the initial stage of mixing the final dough. 


I separated out the honey because when I tried to add it earlier, I had difficulty developing the dough. If you're using the mixer this might not be so much of a problem but I guess I've only been able to test the dough with hand mixing so far.


Thanks for all your detailed reports and questions during this process - it's made me realise I may need to edit the recipe a bit to accomodate the use of electric mixers etc. as well as correct any omissions.


You're on the home stretch now!


Cheers,


FP

amazonium's picture
amazonium

to 2 glorious mounds of dough, happily proofing in their fancy-schmancy panettone papers. You were right about the hydration using the 2 flours I chose- All Trumps and Ceresota. I wonder if next time I should either decrease the hydration QUITE a bit or use AT exclusively? The dough is really slack but the gluten seems to be well developed. There is no way I could form it into boules- I merely let it rest for 20 minutes in the mixer bowl before dividing it into 2 papers. Does this sound correct? I know you said it would be a slack dough. BTW, the taste is yummy- I licked the dough off my hands, raw eggs and all. I know, I know...So tomorrow we shall see the final result. I appreciate your encouragement to not give up if the first try isn't totally successful. Now that I see the process I will time it a LOT better and get it done in a weekend. D'oh! I will keep you posted. I can't wait to see how it turns out. Thank you so much for bearing with me over the past 24 hours and answering my cries for help so promptly. You rock!


Amaz the Weary but Happy!

amazonium's picture
amazonium

are you male or female. Silly question, but I just wondered. Also, what brands of flour did you use in your panettone? I looked at your pics and my dough was waaaaay more slack than yours. I even added flour as I was kneading the final stages.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

I used a (UK) supermarket brand of canadian hard wheat flour and an organic 00 flour from italy (alimonto) - unlike the popular Caputo brand, it's milled from locally (italian) sourced wheat grown to organic standards. 


Not sure about how the slackness issue...it should feel like somewhere between a baguette and ciabatta dough. It sounds somewhat counterintuitive but it's vital to add enough water as well as flour to get desired strength. Egg, sugar and butter intefere somewhat with the gluten, but the gluten will only form if the flour is hydrated enough for the proteins to form bonds.


Oh and I'm male (last I checked)!


Cheers,


FP

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I like to picture the person with whom I 'converse'- so, male it is! I think my dough was a bit slacker than that- rather like a thick thick cake batter. I will do things a bit differently next time. I am still learning the qualities of these 2 flours- they are new weapons  in my arsenal of flours :-)


 

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

It took me many tries before I got it right. The 'batter effect' happens most often when  the sugar is added too quickly. What stage did it start turning to batter? If it was during the butter addition then I'd recommend maybe using slightly cooler butter or cutting back on the amount of butter. 


If I get the chance, I'm going to try and formulate an easier recipe... maybe later this month... without the need to refresh starters every 4 hours.


FP


 


 

amazonium's picture
amazonium

No, it wasn't when adding the sugar- not really sure when I noticed the looseness of the dough. The butter was room temperature and didn't seem to do anything to the dough but make it silkier. I could tell as I put it into the papers that it was glutinous, though. It rose well in the paper, although it ddin't triple in size. Had I left it that long I am afraid it would have fallen over the edges- that should give you an indication how soft the dough was. I couldn't make a decent X-slash across the top into which to tuck the butter. I tried, but the butter ran out as it melted. I brought the bread to work to bake so I wiped up the butter off the baking sheet (I sat the 2 loaves on a sheet pan to support them as they baked) since I was afraid the butter would burn and the smoke alarms would go off in the clinic- that happened to me once before when I was making cinnamon rolls at work- the firemen who arrived were NOT amused. I baked the panettone until the temp was a little above 185 F and I noticed as I stuck the thermometer into the loaves that they felt quite tender- if that makes any sense. I have them hanging between 2 chairs, unside down, cooling. The whole clinic smells WONDERFUL and everyone has asked me what in the heck I am baking! I am not rushing the cooling process so it may be tonight before I actually cut into a loaf. I have my camera and my tastebuds ready!

plevee's picture
plevee

What kind of clinic do you work in? I've never been blessed with a kitchen & oven!


Are you recruiting?


Patsy

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I work in an Occ Med clinic in Xray and Lab. It is a privately-owned clinic with a full kitchen and I get to indulge the staff with my cooking! IT is like cooking for a big family and I love it.


Amaz

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Glad to hear it's baked! The smell of panettone baking is the best :)


As for the slack dough- it sounds like it might just been just a wee bit warmer than needed during proofing rather than anything that happened during mixing.  That's my bad, more than likely -  perhaps I need to go back and make adjustments to the recipe for a proof temp of 75-80F rather than 80-85F. Regardless it should taste great. 


Well done and respect due for sticking through the entire process!


FP


 

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

We're talking serious passion for bread, right here :)


Congrats on the panettone, Amaz!

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I spent my lunch hour today trying to track down a source for fresh (cake) yeast. No luck. But I am undaunted!


Amaz

amazonium's picture
amazonium

Yes, the smell wafted throughout the whole building and now they are enjoyig the TASTE of it! I let it cool upside down until it was completely cooled. I think tomorrow it will have 'settled down' and be even better. It is so so good! I will tweak the recipe a bit on my own. I certainly will be making it again- and again! I promise pictures of the un-decimated loaf later :-)


Amaz.