The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Question about rising

  • Pin It
summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Question about rising

I was recently given a recipe for WW walnut bread that contains the following instruction: "Cover the bowl with a lid and leave the dough to rise for 3 to 4 hours.  It will rise until it collapses.  At this point you can shape your loaf and bake your bread."  This bread calls for 1 tbsp. active dry yeast and 500g WW flour.  My question is this: Has anyone ever heard of letting dough rise until it deflates itself, and if so, how does this differ from letting it rise until double and then shaping and proofing?  Is it just a slower method since it takes 3 to 4 hours for this to occur whereas doubling with this amount of yeast usually only takes about 1 1/2 to 2 hours?  I can't see the advantage of letting the yeast eat itself out of house and home (or at least until the roof falls down!), but maybe I'm missing something!  Thanks in advance.


Summer

ericb's picture
ericb

Summer,


I think you're on the right track. 


One tablespoon of yeast seems like an awful lot of yeast for 500 grams of flour. Moreover, a three- to four- hour rise seems exceptionally long, especially given the amount of yeast. I would think that after 3 hours at room temperature, the dough would never rise a second time. I could be wrong, though.


Have you tried the recipe yet? How did it turn out?

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Weird isn't it?  No, I've been too chicken to try it yet before I get some advice, but I'll post about it on this link when I do.  Thanks for the reply.


Summer

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Maybe the recipe instruction comes from someone who couldn't tell when the bulk proof was done.  "Waiting until it falls" is being done as a timing device taking temperature into consideration.  One tablespoon is a lot of yeast, but not really.    I wouldn't hesitate to do this with a new flour, just to test it.  Seeing how long it takes (if the yeast and flour weight is a constant and that I mix the dough to the same consistency) I can judge the crude strength of the flour. 


I used to let my bulk ferments rise until they wouldn't hold the rise and fall... Then it was high time I did something with the dough.   Soon my test was to drop the bowl hard on the table (being pushy) and see if it fell.  This became a better test.  If it fell, it was time I did something with the dough, like shaping or letting it rise again.     It works but I've found that over the years, I no longer test my dough ferment with shock waves.   I'm into folding now, and that pretty well eliminated my drop kick method.  


I would rather use less yeast to achieve the long ferment but I don't think this recipe is after a long ferment  (I like my dough raw for at least 6 hours if not using sprouted flour) but I'm not a beginner and have aquired experience feeling the dough.  I judge my loaf more by the air content and how it is dispersed within the dough.  I bake it when it reaches the density I desire.


I don't think even with 4 hours, the yeast is exhausted.  Then again if the room is warm, the collapsing comes sooner; cooler, later.  Too cool, too long and the gluten in the dough rips and breaks down before the tablespoon of yeast can do it's work.


I think the recipe is missing instructions on letting the shaped dough rise after shaping.


Mini

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Interesting - I like your idea of "testing" new flour by letting the dough rise and then fall.  I agree with you that it seems like the recipe is not after a long ferment, just a way for the baker to tell if the dough is done rising.  I think I'll make a double batch and follow the recipe instructions on one and handle the dough the way I'm used to with the other.  Thanks.


Summer

flournwater's picture
flournwater

I initially thought a tablespoon of yeast to 500 grams of WW flour was excessive but I find that KA has a WW Walnut bread formula (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/whole-wheat-walnut-bread-recipe) that uses a similar ratio so I guess it's not as uncommon as I had initially believed.


If I were to try your formula (recipe) I think I'd do a conventional inital rise, gently degass and shape and proof the bake.  Allowing the bread to rise until it falls then loading it into the oven does't ring true to my ear.  If I'm mistaken I hope one of the more experienced WW bakers will chime in here and straighten me out.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm no WW expert.


My perusal of WW breads I've made suggests 1.2-1.3% instant yeast is more usual. That would be around 1 tsp for 500 gms of flour.


If I were Summer, I would find another recipe.


David

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

I know I know!  The problem is that the recipe is from a friend who purchases a loaf of bread from me every week (her idea!) and I kind of feel obligated to try it out.  She said that she hasn't actually used the recipe but her sister has done so successfully....  One degree of separation too many if you ask me.


Summer

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Yeah, I've definitely used recipes that utilize this much yeast but not in a 100% WW loaf, though I'm sure there are more out there.


Summer

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Summer,


I think we would have to see the complete recipe to accurately answer your questions.


Jeff

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

I understand, however I don't have a scanner and I'd have to type in the whole thing.  I'm not trying to be lazy it's just that my question is mainly about the technique of letting dough rise until it falls and whether anyone has heard of doing this and what purpose it serves.  Here is the ingredient list:


1 1/2 cups (360 ml) warm water


1/4 cup (60 ml) honey or agave nectar


1 tbsp (10 g) active dry yeast


2 tsp sea salt


3 1/2 cups (500g) whole wheat flour


1 tbsp (15 ml) walnut oil


1 tbsp (15 ml) olive oil


1 cup (110 g) coarsely chopped walnuts


I assure you that the recipe instructions are fairly standard (mix, bulk ferment, shape, proof for 45 min, bake) except for the bit about letting the dough rise and fall during the bulk ferment.  


Summer

flournwater's picture
flournwater

Reading what dmsnyder offered and then checking your ingredient outline I came to wonder if your friend's formula might have been mistranslated when passing from hand to hand.  Like most others, I have a recipe box filled with old recipes that have been passed down, over and through many hands and it is not uncommon to discover a that an ingredient is missing or listed with an unusual specific amount.  It would be very easy to transpose 1 Tbsp for 1 tsp when copying a list of ingredients like the one you're referring to.  Still, letting the dough colapse is the greater mystery here and I'd suggest either working with and finding a fix for the method recommended in the instructions or just finding a recipe that makes a bit more sense.

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

Can you believe that it's from a photocopy from an actual book?!.... Not that published books don't have typos!  If only the copy included the author and title, though.


Summer

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

I think you will find that it is common for a recipe with that much sweetener to call for a lot of yeast.  I would guess that the rise and fall scenario is for those unfamiliar with properly proofed dough.


Jeff

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

I'm with you on both thoughts.


Summer

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

A lot of recipes call for 1 packet (which works out to about a scant tablespoon) of ADY or IDY for flour quantities ranging from 3-5 cups.  I just checked some of Bernard Clayton's whole wheat bread recipes and that's pretty typical of what he recommends.


Letting the dough rise and collapse, though, is not typical of any recipe in my repertoire.


Paul

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

I appreciate the response.  Your info makes sense.  I'll bet whoever wrote the recipe figured that people would use a packet of yeast.  I'm still going to do my experiment with two loaves just for fun!


Summer

rayel's picture
rayel

dough is finger poke tested, isn't that uncommon, I wouldn't think. Often recipes that I have read even call for a second rise, if they are straight doughs, then proofed and baked. I doubt the yeast will run out of GAS (i couldn't resist). Packets of yeast did contain a tablespoon a while back. I don't know if I could intentionally wait till it fell however.


 ray

summerbaker's picture
summerbaker

I don't think that I could take it if this recipe called for a SECOND rise!


Summer