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Softer bread

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Fly's picture
Fly

Softer bread

     I'm really want to be able to duplicate the really light and soft dinner rolls served in restaurants (Sante Fe Cattle Co and Ryan's Family Whatever come to mind).  The're very light, very tender, and they almost melt in your mouth.  I'm not sure if it's a technique thing, recipe thing, or combination of the two.  My breads in general are improving but are still chewier than I like all the time.  I generally shoot for 62%-65% hydration...

verminiusrex's picture
verminiusrex

Try adding vital wheat gluten or using high gluten flour, it makes a much softer bread.  The first time I did a quick loaf with high gluten flour just for an experiment, I said "I just made Wonderbread!"

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Vital wheat gluten will not make the dough softer.  I find that soft dinner rolls include more sugar, milk, and butter to soften the crumb.  Also mixing the dough is a longer gradual process with beating or mixing between additions of flour.   There are so many recipes!  Additions of cooked potatoes, and vegitables also soften crumb as well as pre-cooked (and cooled) grain/flour additions to the dough.  The list is long.  Wild yeast water also softens the crumb. 


Mini


 

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

The good news is that just by using fat, sugar, and/or milk in your formula, you can add softness.  Using eggs will add some lightness and/or height.


The bad news is that those super-light textured rolls use chemical dough conditioners to achieve that texture.  It's unlikely that you can duplicate it.  Using vital wheat gluten will add strength to your dough -- and possibly a more airy interior -- but you'll have to mix out the dough to where the gluten is developed completely.  I'm not sure how long that would be with your mixer.  And adding gluten will make the rolls more chewy -- not more tender.


If you want the cottony texture, keep the dough's consistency firm but supple -- not like a brick, but not wet either.  Getting those super-feathery, almost non-existent interiors on the rolls requires the chemical additives, unfortunately.


Wish I had better news.


--Dan DiMuzio

Fly's picture
Fly

Well, it's not a perfect world.  I knew that fats and sugar would tenderize but I don't really know where to go from there.  Are there any general guidelines for percentages?

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Mr. DiMuzio:



If you want the cottony texture, keep the dough's consistency firm but supple -- not like a brick, but not wet either.



In your professional opinion, what % of hydration would you recommend for a loaf of 100% whole wheat sourdough sandwich bread in order to achieve a soft and springy texture? Thanks very much.


Yippee

dghdctr's picture
dghdctr

Hi Yippee,


I honestly don't know if I can answer that question with any degree of accuracy.  Unless I'm familiar with the flour you're using and I've baked with it before, I could be off by as many as 5 or 6 percentage points.  There aren't any universal hydration percentages that apply everywhere.


Here in the U.S., with whole wheat bread flour, I'd probably plan on starting with about a 65% hydration and adjusting it from there.  It is critical that you add most of any "corrective" water in the first minute of powered mixing.  If the flour and other ingredients just form moistened lumps instead of a contiguous dough, the gluten is said to become "burned" from too much friction being applied with insufficient water to lubricate the process.  The dough is then ruined.


You might want to make your first attempt by hand, since that really can't damage the gluten.  Then trust your instincts about making water adjustments (which can be necessary with any formula).  Scale some extra water and set it aside separately from the other ingredients.  Remember exactly what its weight was -- say 100g? -- and then, if you add any of it to the dough, weigh whatever is left and you'll know how much extra you had to add.  This will allow you to calculate what the final hydration rate of the dough actually was.  This would be the weight of water you might want to start with the next time.


--Dan DiMuzio


 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Mr. DiMuzio.  KA WW and KA White WW are the whole wheat flours I normally use.


 


Yippee

PaddyL's picture
PaddyL

...will make a softer bread.

Glass-Weaver's picture
Glass-Weaver

If you search the word "Billowy" (upper left, here on TheFreshLoaf) you'll come up with the Cinnamon Roll Recipe.  I'm sure it would make wonderful dinner rolls (without the vanilla and filling, of course).  It has all the elements of a soft bread (potatoes, butter, eggs, buttermilk, sourdough) and the dough itself is very, very soft.  In fact, it's kind of flabby to work with, but the resulting rolls are indeed "Billowy".  Let us know how it works out, if you try it.


 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Unfortunately, she has long passed.I had a neighbor that used to make her own white bread and the texture was downright downy.I have never seen a loaf of handmade bread like it since. She was ancient when I was a teen and that was multiple decades ago. I wish I had talked to her more but I was young and silly but even at that stage of life, I took notice of her bread.


So I know it is possible-I just don't know how.I assume she did all by hand and with simple ingredients.Was bread flour available (or gluten by itself)back in 1960's? Could she have used some cake flour? I'm sure she used milk and butter-it was very tasty,too! May be worth some experimentation.

Crider's picture
Crider

That's it. Lower protein (gluten) flour. I've had very good results using left-over tortilla flour for rolls. I've also been looking for wheat starch to do some experimentation of mixing my own flours.

qahtan's picture
qahtan

 It would probably be be just as good as loaf bread, but I have never tried it that way, only as rolls, go exactly as recipe states and your rolls will be fabulous, ;-))) qahtan


Yields 16 rolls.

18 oz. (4 cups) all-purpose flour
1 package (2-1/4 tsp.) rapid-rise yeast
1/3 cup sugar
1 tsp. salt
1 cup milk
4 oz. (8 Tbs.) unsalted butter
3 large egg yolks

In a large bowl of an electric mixer, whisk together the flour, yeast, sugar, and salt. Put the bowl in the mixer stand and fit it with the dough hook.

In a small saucepan, heat the milk and butter, stirring until the butter melts and the liquid is very warm, between 115° and 125°F.

Dump the warm milk-butter mixture and the egg yolks into the flour and mix on medium-low speed until combined. Increase the speed to medium high and beat until the dough is smooth and shiny, about 8 min.

(If you don't have a stand mixer, you can make a well with the dry ingredients, gradually add the wet, and then knead the dough by hand until smooth and shiny.)

Remove the dough from the bowl, shape it into a neat ball, and then return it to the bowl. Lightly grease the sides of the bowl and cover the top securely with plastic. Let rise in a warm spot until doubled in size, about 45 min.

Lightly grease a 9x13-inch baking dish. Turn the dough onto a clean work surface (no need to flour; the dough is soft but not sticky) and gently press to deflate. Using a pastry scraper, divide the dough into 16 equal pieces, each about 2 oz. (use a scale to be sure).

Put a piece of dough in your palm (again, no flour). With the edge of your other palm (curved slightly), press gently but firmly on the dough, rotating it repeatedly until it forms a smooth-skinned ball with a sealed bottom. Put the ball in the pan, sealed side down, and repeat with the remaining dough.

Cover the pan with plastic and let the dough rise until almost doubled, about 30 min. Meanwhile, heat the oven to 375°F. Remove the plastic and bake the rolls until they're puffed and browned, about 20 min. Serve warm.


 source  unknown

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Qahtan, that sounds like just what the doctor ordered. I'm nursing a bad cold and need something easy to eat that will taste good. Thanks.


Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That looks like a good recipe to use sprouted flour! 


Mini

Fly's picture
Fly

I added a bit of sugar and a bit of butter (2% and 3%, respectively) to an otherwise unchanged 65% recipe.  I split the dough into 1 largish 10"x5" loaf pan, 12 cloverleaf (I think that's what they're called) dinner rolls in a muffin tin, and one smallish round loaf baked right on the stone.  The difference in the crumb texture in the rolls is wonderful, and I can't wait to see how it works out in the loaves.  Thanks for the pointers, and I can't wait to surprise my wife with those billowy cinammon rolls!

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Qahtan,


We devoured the rolls. You are correct, light and flavorful all the way. Just pull one of and enjoy. My first bite reminded me of the Portuguese sweet rolls.


Eric

qahtan's picture
qahtan

I am pleased that you all enjoyed my rolls.....    .;-))))


                    qahtan

darkmoondreamer's picture
darkmoondreamer

qahtan I used to follow your posts with pleasure over on the Kitchenaid forum a couple of years ago when I first got my mixer. I'm so happy to see your expertise here! Love Karen

qahtan's picture
qahtan

 


 Thank you for the compliment........                   Haven't done much baking etc of late,  have Christmas cake to do soon... and made 5 1/2 pound mincemeat about a week ago.


  Take care. qahtan


 


 

darkmoondreamer's picture
darkmoondreamer

qahtan I made your rolls last night and they were to die for good! "If" I were to try this as a loaf, what would your oven temp, time, and internal temp recommendations be?

qahtan's picture
qahtan

As I said earlier I have yet to use this recipe for loaf breads but intend to quite soon. But knowing me I shall dough up as per recipe and then weigh the  amount for my tin/s.


 Then when ready I will bake at again 375f until the top crust looks good, maybe about 40 mins, plus or minus, but this is purely guess work, trial and error. Sorry to be so iffy but most times I wing it. remember the loaves will brown quite quickly due to the eggs and milk in there.  qahtan,,,,,


Psss, Two things I never do, is take internal temperature, and I never use bakers percentages, no matter how I try I just don't understand them/it. ;-)))

darkmoondreamer's picture
darkmoondreamer

Thanks qahtan...I may have to experiment tomorrow and let you know :)

clazar123's picture
clazar123

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14154/very-soft-white-breadmaybe-even-fluffy


 


I just posted this last night. This loaf is incredibly soft! I think the pastry flour makes a BIG difference.Of course, the butter,egg and milk help,too.It is sourdough based but could easily be converted to an all yeast with just a little experimentation. I converted it from the "Wonder Bread Clone" recipe that was on these threads a while ago-that was an all yeast recipe.


Have fun!