The Fresh Loaf

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Winebaking Part II: what happened?

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Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Winebaking Part II: what happened?

A while ago I posted a question about the possibility of baking with wine - whether it could be done, what the tricks might be, and general anybody-know...  I received so much helpful tips about procedures, and recommendations of the Vinafera wine flour, and links and ideas.  User yozzause had the excellent idea of adding wine to a recipe I was familiar with, and using a starter, so I finally, finally worked up the guts to try that...  

I took a very basic formula for a honey wheat germ bread I'm quite familiar with.  I didn't want to use up all the resources in our pantry, so I made it in a very small proportion.  Essentially, I went with white flour, active dry yeast, a bit of vital wheat gluten and a little bit of wheat germ, honey, butter, and moisture – I replaced half the water with red wine. 

I had been advised that the alcohol present in the wine could inhibit yeast development, so I attempted to burn away the alcohol on the stovetop; simple enough.  It’s quite a basic recipe of mix, knead, rise, shape, proof, and bake, and it went normally – a good rise on the dough and the loaf, and a fine oven spring. 

Argh! But I was so disappointed!  Usually, this bread has a nice, wholesome, slightly sweet taste with the flavor of some wheat without the heaviness, and I’d hoped to contribute a bit of the red wine flavor.  Best part: purple dough!  I loved the crimson touch.  Worst part: bitterness!  Though the crumb was soft and quite normal, the taste, once rested, was pretty harsh to me.  I skipped that one.  Inexplicably, my husband liked the bitterness!

But I’m wondering whether the bitterness is an inevitable product of adding alcohol to a recipe, or whether I did something wrong, or if this was simply the wrong recipe – anybody have any thoughts?  Suggestions?  Again, thank you all, for everything!

p.s.  I did find this recipe for an ancient Roman bread made with must, the early juices of fermenting wine, and I think perhaps I’ll try that, and I thought others might be interested too!  The site has a number of ancient and medieval breads:  http://www.celtnet.org.uk/recipes/roman/fetch-recipe.php?rid=roman-mustacei

 

rainwater's picture
rainwater

For me.....flour is for baking, and wine is for drinking! 

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

But they're delicious together, too!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

a loaf of bread,


a jug of wine,


and thou...


Didn't we all learn that in high school?


David G

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Beautiful, my friend!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

I home-brew, home-vint, and home-bake. Beer and bread are kinflolk since both usually--not always--are made from grain; ground grain in bread, malted grain in beer; both rely primarily on the starches in grain to produce their respective end products.


Beer is made by boiling wort (the sugar solution extracted from malted grains) with hops that impart bitterness and flavor. The cooled, hopped wort is then fermented into beer. Beer, compared to dry wine, contains a relatively high percentages of unfermented sugars, e.g. dextrins. Unhopped wort, when fermented yields a malt drink that is sweet on the palette. As I'm sure you are aware, beer is used frequently in breads, and batters. Obviously, beers' flavor contributions don't change in the baking/cooking processes enough to impart off flavors


On the other hand, dry wine, as its name implies, contains very little or no residual sugars. Furthmore, must, i.e., unfermented grape juice, is protected from high temperature, as is the finished wine, throughout their lifetimes.


I don't know the chemical make-up of wines' flavor contributers, but I suspect exposing them to temperatures near boiling (in baking) will change them for the worse, e.g.: bitter. I suspect this is the source of bitterness in your bread.


Note about your posted website: Must is called young wine in the recipe. I think this might be misleading. Young wine usually refers to fully fermented wines, that completed fermenting only recently (two years or less). Must is fundementally a sugar solution, analogous to wort: Infant Wine.


I'm sure, like beer, if wine made good tasting bread we'd all be baking it ;-)


Since you have access to must, I'd recommend you try your version of the posted recipe.


Good luck, and let us know your results when you experiment further.


David G

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

You're an expert!  As I've found, both wine and bread involve a good deal of fun science!  We still have a good deal of sweet must (we're going for semi-sweet, slightly dry), so I'm interested in trying that posted bread.  Here in Hungary, also, there's a famous and immensely sweet raisin wine called Tokaj, and I thought perhaps that might be an interesting ingredient to try.  Thanks for your wise thoughts!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Judging by prices here, even a small amount will make Tokaj bread a very expensive loaf!


D. G.

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

I know the steep cost of Tokaj in the States!  Fortunately, since it's a local product, it's available in any tiny grocery here for the equivalent of $4 or so!  The Tokaj vineyards on their own, by the way, are a gorgeous sort of landscape fit for a painting...

charbono's picture
charbono

you added acid and tannin.


 

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

I should have thought of that!  I'm still learning the intricacies of winemaking (I'm suddenly immersed in two forms of yeast fermentation!), so I'm not certain how much of what elements come through, but you've made a very astute point...  Thanks!

LeadDog's picture
LeadDog

It really is hard to say what made your bread bitter but I agree that tannins is a very good guess.  The acid in wine is another really good guess but they should give the bread a sour taste.  If you want to keep trying wine in your bread I would start out by only replacing 10% of your water with it.


I may have to try adding wine to my bread sometime just to see what happens.

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Wine did yield a gorgeously violet crumb!  If you try, I'd love to see the results!  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

with spices making a warm beverage to ward off the cold chills of winter.  Just to boiling.   I don't know how heavenly wine gets when one boils the hell out of it.


Mini

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Nice thought here, too!  Mulled warm wine (with cinnamon, sugar, and other spices) gets quite popular here too as the weather grows frosty, and perhaps that could produce more interesting results...  Thanks!

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Mulled wine added to a dense multi-grain loaf. I've got some spent grain frozen--I'm brewing a Pilsner for an annual party--I'm thinking a whole wheat, spent grain, raisan loaf with mulled wine replacing some of the liquid.


However, I remember reading somewhere that cinnamon weakens dough, and thats why buns and swirl loaves only use cinnamon in the fillings. Can anyone offer more information on this?


David G

davidg618's picture
davidg618

Cinnamon slow down yeast activity, and in large quantity (undefined what large means) can stop it completely.


Check out this site: http://www.schoolofbaking.com/dough_tips.htm


along with answering my question, it's loaded with other tips.


D. G.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What if you rolled wet raisins in cinn first before folding into the dough?   A cinnamon glaze brushed on the loaf when cool?  Cinnamon Butter?  Caramelized sugar with cinnamon, coat some of the frozen grain, fold into the dough after the bulk rise.  to name a few ideas... or add more yeast!

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

I've heard about the problems with cinnamon and yeast, but I have never had real problems, and often used cinnamon - but I always add some sort of vitamin C and a pinch of ginger as dough enhancers, and for larger amounts I boost the yeast by 25% or so.  Still, I really think a mild amount of cinnamon doesn't post an immense problem.  Or maybe I'm silly...

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Erzsebet


Probably a bit adventurous substituting half the water for wine first try, i did suggest perhaps starting at 10% and then if it is ok try a bit more and so on.


I did think of mulled wine when you suggested burning off the alcohol.


I also said a basic bread recipe, you did have quite a few goodies in the dough with wheat germ, honey and butter. Wheat germ can be a bit bitter, did you taste that before it went into the dough?


Lots of positives there though in the way the dough behaved for you and the fact that your husband liked it can't be all bad!


How good was the wine to start with, quite a  few people say they dont like a wine when drinking it but will say they will use it in cooking.( if you dont like it to drink it isn't going to make your food any better)


dont give up though, im sure you can get a good result yet.


My dough is still in the thought process but will happen soon, it will be interesting to have the expert taste testers here at work  comment on the results


I'm thinking 50% wholemeal flour soaked in the water and wine with a scant amount of yeast overnight, rest of flour and 2% salt and possibly 1% yeast addition.


I will try to do it this week seeing as you have already done yours.


regards Yozza


 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Erzsebert


True to my word and inspired by your speedy start  i went ahead with the SHIRAZ bread it was a 16% substitutuion wine for liquid


wholemeal flour 500g


water 500g


shiraz 100g


yeast 2g


made a ferment at 7.00pm  and then left it in the laundry and went to bed about 9.00pm.woke up at 11.30 and checked the ferment  it was well up the bowl.


Went back to bed and thought about it , decided to take it in its prime so got up and decided that it would be to noisy to use the machine so hand mixed on the bench so as not to wake the wife


added 500g white flour


20g salt


20g veg oil


and a further 40g water  which could easily have taken more


 Dough was finished at 12.20 am finished temp was 23 deg centigrade


placed in bowl and put back into the laundry  ambient temp at that time was 18 deg.


Back to bed  and woke up at 4.30 the dough was now fully proved so punced down and divided up, 1 kg piece for a cob and 6 small 100g pieces that i was going to play with. Made three dough piggies after seeing them on TFL + 3 shaped rolls covered with plastic bags and set to proof.


Made nearest and dearest tea before she had to head off for work at 6.30.


it looked like the rolls would make it to the oven before i had to go to work the cob was going to have to come with me to work and be baked there.


bread rolls went in and came out with 15 minutes to spare before time to leave for work. i made a call to work and asked for the deck oven to be switched on.


Work is just a 10 minute drive so i was soon there,  i ended up having to wait until 8.30 before i had enough temperature to put the bread in. whilst waiting for that to bake i was able to get my peers the chefs to try some of the rolls that were duly sliced  and an overwhelming thumbs up. no bitterness  lots of flavour a nice soft crumb, not a great deal of colour shiraz wise although the wholemeal may have masked that somewhat.


The loaf baked really nicely although the oven was getting a bit hot with just 1 item in it, it came out just after nine and then i took it back with me to my work area and drove the colleagues wild with the aroma. i did allow them to sacrifice another piggy there though and again all thought the result great. my supervisor declaring it my best effort yet.


  The loaf was allowed to cool before the photos were taken and the loaf cut open


the photos are to be posted when i get home  in a couple of hours  as knock off time happned at the begining of this post.


wish i could send you a slice Erzsebet! 

yozzause's picture
yozzause

having no luck loading pics will have to try again tomorrow to tired from last nights effort to try anymore will have to read the how to do bit for pics regards yozza

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Wow!  It sounds like you had an absolutely heavenly success!  I've had trouble loading pictures as well, so what I've figured out as a silly solution is simply to post the images on my own general writing blog, then copy the URL, if that helps at all.  I admire your bread even without the photographs!  With your permission, might I try your own recipe?  They say that a scientific experiment ought to be repeated...  Anyways, congratulations!  And thank you...


Erzsebet

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Certainly everything here is to share, shiao-ping a very talented Aussie TFL baker is about to have a go with a 60%wine bread so watch out for her posting coming soon..


I was a bit disappointed with the colour only, bread was still beautifull this morning for breakfast, hope there will be some for toast tomorrow.


now stand back here comes a pic quickly followed by another. i will try to load the rest at home tonight after getting these 2 up ENJOY


regards yozza


 

Erzsebet Gilbert's picture
Erzsebet Gilbert

Are you sure a slice sent via international mail wouldn't go stale over the ocean?  Oh, your bread is gorgeous!  I have to try your recipe, simply to get something that lovely!  Is that sesame on top?  Bravo!

yozzause's picture
yozzause

YES SESAME SEED,


NOW IF ONLY BREAD COULD TRAVEL AS QUICKLY AS E MAIL


SO I WILL DO THE SAME AGAIN BUT INCREASE TO 200ML WINE 400+ WATER FOR A TRUE COMPARISON.


REGARDS YOZZA

yozzause's picture
yozzause

At last the pictures for the wine bread they were taken as the evening and morning progressed, i was asked how did you manage to wake up at th eright time i guess its a bit like having a baby that needs tending through the night except that it  doesn't cry out.


Time frame ferment made 7.09pm


ferment taken 11.20pm


dough made 12.14am


dough near ready 4.25am


dough ready 5.05am


dough test 5.06am


dough moulded 5.46am


rolls made 5.53am


washed and seeded 6.13am


rolls baked 7.33am


went to work and baked loaf there  9.10am


piggy cut 9.25am (piggies copied from a TFL posting)


loaf cut about 11.am


  


Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Wow lots of pictures!   Can't help but notice the little piggies! (thanks)


I see you may have problems with your oven.  Can you get more heat under the bottom of your loaf?   The top crust is hogging all the color. 


How did the wine bread taste?


Mini

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Mini  once i got the hang of the picture posting away i went .


i used the deck oven at work and it does take a bit of time to come up to heat even when i phoned ahead to fire it up, and the bottom could have been a bit better baked.


Taste wise i was pleased, all comments from my panel of tasters were positive with some thinking it was the best yet, I wouldn't go quite that far but very nice.Some thought that the wine flavour had carried across but i did not think so. It is keeping very well with some still left at home.When i first made this bread i didnot measure the wine content  but i wll be happy to up the amount next time and after Shiao-Pings excellent post and experiment will probably heat the wine.


regards Yozza  

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

and the bread looks very flavorful.   Thanks for showing us all the photos.  I love the recording of times you did; it is very very clear and helpful for us.


Shiao-Ping

yozzause's picture
yozzause

I did take notes  but the camera never lies it tells you the time the picture was taken. The great thing was the very small amount of yeAst initially used hence the long period of  pre ferment and bulk fermentation.


The piggies were on TFL not long ago and the more you make the better they get.


We are having 70 primary school students coming to TAFE as part of the Stephanie Alexander garden to the kitchen program for schools next week, i'm going down to help out with the bread rolls and baking on thursday with half a dozen little helpers, so 70 little piggies could be quite a sight.