The Fresh Loaf

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Horst Bandel Pumpernickel From the Hamelman Bread Book

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txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Horst Bandel Pumpernickel From the Hamelman Bread Book

Hi all, I've been making high percentage rye breads recently, finally got to the horst bandel pumpernickel this past weekend. Having read some of the warnings here, I was very stingy with the soaking water for old bread (I used some 100% rye) and rye berries. I didn't add any extra water at first after mixing everything together, it was actually pretty dry, with lots of dry flour at the bottom, so I added water one TBSP at a time, until the "dough" is a paste that felt like the 100% rye I made successfully a few times. Shaped and put it in the pullman pan (even double checked to make sure it's the right size), after 50 minutes it rose some, the top domed probably 3/4inch below the pan edge, not as high as I had expected, but I didn't want to over proof, so it went into a 370F oven for an hour, then 275F for 3 hours, then the oven is off. Everything went smoothly, imagin my disappointment when I open the lid this morning and found that the bread didn't rise at all in the oven, still the same dome shape. What could be the problem? The sourdough start I used has been reliably effective for months, and the starter dough rose and matured properly in the 14 hours. The instant yeast I used is from the same batch used for another bread, which rose successfully, what what can it be? Did I leave the dough too dry? Should I have baked it longer/at a higher temperature? I am eager to try again and get it right, but need to figure out what went wrong first! Oh, the high gluten flour I used is Sir Lancelot from KA, about 14% protein. Thanks!

Elagins's picture
Elagins

rye absorbs significantly more water than wheat, which it needs to form the viscous polysaccharide gel that holds the CO2. without enough hydration, the gel simply can't become as elastic as it needs to be, and so you lose the rise.

i've found that 80-85% is about the right hydration level when i'm making 100% ryes. anything less than that and i don't get enough rise; anything more and the boule won't hold its shape on the stone.

here's an 85% hydrated 100% rye: http://www2.snapfish.com/slideshow/AlbumID=1359101022/PictureID=40663712022/a=156993369_156993369/

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

I actually kept track of the water absorbed by the old bread/rye berries, with those, plus the water I added during mixing, I'd say it's between 75% to 80%, so a tad low considering there're also 25% rye berries, 25% rye chops, in addition to the 30% pumpernickel and 25% high gluten flour. So I guess I need more water... Yout got a handsome loaf there BTW!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It doesn't sound too unusual to me.  Wait a day (so it can set well) before cutting it and before judging.   Patience!  The waiting just makes it better...


I know that is easier to say than to do. 


Mini

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

But I think this bread is supposed to fill the pullman pan, forming a square loaf... It seems that I need a bit more rise out of the dough. I am waiting to cut and see the crumb though...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The only thing I can think of is maybe you could have waited to let the dough rise more.  There was instant yeast to handle it, but 50 minutes is a short time even for instant yeast. 


Is that what you were thinking?


Mini

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

I am thinking more water and longer rising time. I may have over-corrected after reading all the "too wet" comments about this bread.

Kuret's picture
Kuret

I have also made this bread and found that I did not have to add all the water called for in the formula but I still had to add a good deal of water.


Did you check your dough temperature when fermenting? I find dough temperature to be most important when making rye doughs.


When I made the bread it did reach the rop of the pan but not in the ends, I made 1+1/3 of the weight he specifies for a 3litre pan because I have a 4litre pan.

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Thanks for the information, it's really helpful. My pan size is the same as the one used in the recipe, I will check the dough temperature next time, I was approximate it using a lamp etc., maybe it wasn't warm enough, especially with the lid on.

nova's picture
nova

Txfarmer,


I was making Horst Bandel when I read your post and all the replies.  This is my 4th loaf of HB...just now getting it right.  Yes, careful of wet berries and soaked bread, watch the water content..., but a nice pasty, moderately loose dough.


Yesterday that I decided to proof to the top of the Pullman...and guess what!  the tallest HB I have produced yet....I am a stickler for following Jeffrey's advice but 3/4 inch from the top produced great tasting HB but short, squat loaves.


Also, I use the following oven Temp protocol:  375 for 60 min, 275 for 4 hours and then coolest setting on oven for 4-5 hours (on oven timer) and then off at 1 pm in the am, so I unload at 7 am later:  truly a descending temp for 16 hours.  With the oven stone I have and covering the oven vents with a couple of towels, the residual heat in the oven at 7 am was 122 F.  I really feel that we should mimic the cooling of a wood-fired oven as much as possible.  So turning the oven off after 3-4 hrs at 275 is might be too sudden for the carmelization the formula is calling for.  When I open the Pullman top I smell dark, fragrant almost Bourbon-like, molasses tones...


How has your loaf turned out now that has rested?


nova


 


 

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Thanks for the great info!


I cut in and found it slightly underbaked, and a very tight crumb. Still yummy though. I think you are right about not turning it off after 275, it was smelling great during the 4 hours at 275, but the fragrant disappeared after I turned the oven off. I think I will try again next weekend (out of town this coming one), this bread is addicting, I MUST get it right! :P

nova's picture
nova

txfarmer,


 


everyone I have given Horst Bandel to, who are true bread lovers are hooked by the bread...it IS truly one of the great breads....and how lucky we are that Jeffrey both met Horst Bandel and gave us his remarkable recipe in his BREAD book.  I know you will get the bread where you want it, just keep plugging away at it!


nova

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

Thanks Nova. Unfortunately my 2nd try failed again. I added 7oz of the final 12.8oz water, in addition to the water in the soakers, the dough felt similar to the 100% rye I made before. It rose to 3/4 below the pan lid during proofing (however it did take longer than 60 minutes, maybe 70 minutes), but didn't rise anymore in the oven. In another words, it didn't fill the pullman pan as I expect.


Sounds like you've baked it sucessfully a few times, yours always fill the pan? How much final water do you usually add? I use Sir Lancelot high gluten flour, and pretty stingy with my old bread soaker water (around 5oz). Rye berries were boiled on stove top for an hour. Baked at 375F for an hour, 275 for 4 hours, lowest temp for my oven for another 4 hours.


Cut in 24 hours later and found it still wet and sticky, waiting to try it again tonight, I expect it to taste better.

nova's picture
nova

Txfarmer,


the Horst Bandel is about as big (tall) as the vollkornbrot....with so little wheat flour, I do not get finished loaves that fill the pan.  Perhaps there is a way to do so but I suspect I cannot since I use Kamut-spelt flour for the 10% wheat flour...


I never add any water until I am well into the mix....I always wait to see the impact of the soaked bread and cooked rye berries....BTW, I boil these until al dente and drain and let cool on large platter before use...so they are not soggy or dripping wet when added to the mixer.  I do get a good rise during the 50-65 minute proof, but the baking is so long....


When you bake any dense rye for 3-4 or more hours, there is always some shrinkage...since my HB is much taller than the original loaves I am quite pleased.  I nver cut a loaf unless it has aged at least 36 hours....if you try the Vollkornbrot Hamelman has, these are always short squat loaves as well especially being 100% rye...


Don't know if any of this helps, but these are my approaches...


nova