The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Pain de Tradition Sourdough

  • Pin It
dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Pain de Tradition Sourdough

 


When Shiao-Ping showed us the “Pain de Tradition” of James McGuire, I knew I was going to make it. The bread she made was gorgeous and good to eat. The techniques used were very congenial to me, since I have really had good results from “stretch and fold in the bowl” mixing with other breads. Besides, the one bread attributed to McGuire I've made (repeatedly) – the “Miche, Pointe-à-Callière” in Hamelman's “Bread” - is a wonderful bread.


I immediately thought of making this bread as a sourdough. Shiao-Ping and then Eric beat me to the draw. Here is mine.


I followed Shiao-Ping's formula. My starter has some rye and some whole wheat flour, but I used KAF Bread Flour exclusively to make the dough. I did add 2 gms of Instant Yeast, although my feeling was, like Eric's, that less would be better, particularly since my kitchen temperature was around 80F.


As I did the repeated stretch and folds, I felt the dough was not developing as well as I was accustomed to using this technique. So, for the last two sets of stretch and folds, I folded 15-20 times, rather than 8-10 times. At the end, the dough was still very loose. My inclination would have been to do a tight pre-shaping, but I stuck with the directions and just transferred the dough to a floured board to rest for 15 minutes under the bowl. I shaped a boule by gathering the edges of the dough to the center and sealing the seams. I then transferred the loaf to a well-floured, linen-lined banneton to proof.


I proofed for about 40 minutes, at which time the loaf had expanded no more than 50%. I transferred it to parchment on a peel and loaded onto my pre-heated baking stone. The rest of the baking procedure was as Shiao-Ping described.



 


This is the lightest-colored loaf I've baked in years. I might like this bread baked darker (by baking at a higher temperature), but the light-colored crust sure shows up the yellow pigments in the flour. Others have remarked on how yellow or “cream”-colored the crumb is on this bread. Well, my crust was too!


I baked the loaf to 210F internal temperature, then baked it 5 minutes more, then left it in the oven for 10 minutes more with the oven off and the door ajar. The crust still softened as the bread cooled.



The crumb is classic sourdough - randomly scattered holes of varying size. The mouth feel is cool and tender yet chewy. When first tasted, completely cooled, it has a lovely aroma and flavor. It is actually more assertively sour than expected.


This is a lovely bread. I'll make it again. I'd like to try it with a darker crust and a thicker one. 


David


 


 


 

Comments

Pablo's picture
Pablo

I want to put my head on it and take a nap.  I looks welcomingly pillowy.  I look forward to seeing the crumb.


:-Paul

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The bread is indeed "pillowy." But I'd advise brushing off some of the flour before resting your weary head on it.


Crumb's up.


David

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Your sourdough looks just like the one in James MacGuire's article!  I feel guilty now you said you'd like your bread baked darker because his instruction was to bake for 70 - 80 minutes!  But he also adds we may gradually adjust the temperature curve to achieve a 60-minute total bake (and that's why I simply put 60 minutes in my post!)  But you know what - I actually baked all of mine for 50 minutes only (ie, 15 min. at 230C/450F and the remainig 35 min at 175C/350F) because my family doesn't like thick and dark crust!  You see people really have different preferences.


Shiao-Ping

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Please don't feel guilty! This is delicious! But, you of all people understand the desire to experiment with variations.


I have never baked a bread like this for a long time at a low temperature, except for large rye loaves. My inclination would be to just bake at a higher temperature. Hmmm... It would be interesting to try it both ways.


David


 

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I have been missing in action . Love that bread and have been reading posts trying to get caught up. You always provide great explanations. c

Nomadcruiser53's picture
Nomadcruiser53

The crust and crumb look great. I think it would be interesting to see how it is with a darker crust. Dave

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Looks like a nice loaf, David. Crumb shot is very appealing. I'm sure it smells terrific.


--Pamela

DonD's picture
DonD

Your loaf sure looks proud and tall. I noticed that loaves baked by other TFL members following the same technique also look lighter. Maybe cold retardation produces darker crust?


Don

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I had some of this bread toasted for breakfast. The sourness is more mild. That's interesting, because many sourdoughs are more sour the day after baking.


DonD, the light colored crust is primarily because of the lower baking temperature (350F). Cold retardation of formed loaves often results in a reddish crust color. I don't know why this is in terms of the chemistry.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

It is a strange sort of formula don't you think? My second batch using the starter and less yeast was much tastier. You and I like the darker crust and the long low bake is at odds with that.


One thing I found is that Shiao-Pings suggestion of dusting flour around the edge of the bowl after the folding session, helps a lot in getting the dough rolled out onto the counter and feeling well developed. I actually lift the dough away with the scraper and sprinkle flour under the dough as I rotate the bowl. Another thing is I tried to limit the flour on the counter when I rolled it out of the bowl. The bottom became the top when on the counter. Then I tightened the boule as you did by pulling the sides together. That is my pre shape. Then I rolled it over onto it's bottom side and covered it with the bowl for 15 minutes resting.


One last thing I noticed with the sourdough version is that it is a little more likely to spread when tipped out of the basket. I'm going to try reducing the hydration by a few percent to compensate for the higher pH of the starter. Then I think it will hold its shape like the yeasted version.


I'm glad you stuck to your procedures when drying out the crust at the end. That is one thing you taught me that really helps fight off the soggy crust syndrome. Thanks.


Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

What do you find "strange" about the formula?


I agree. The method for getting the dough out of the bowl is a trick I'll at to my repertoire for use with other breads.


I haven't tried the straight dough method yet. I might do it this weekend.


David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,


I should of used another word. It's just got so many aspects that are unusual. The continuous folding, baking schedule, high but manageable hydration. It works but it feels like an experiment to me.


Eric

pattycakes's picture
pattycakes

You say,


"I'm going to try reducing the hydration by a few percent to compensate for the higher pH of the starter."


I don't get it. Please help me out!


Thanks,


Patricia

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I've never seen you look so pale, David!  Just Kidding..couldn't resist...your loaf is lovely as always.  I too am shooting for a darker crust and a tiny bit thicker,  I would be happy with a crust like the color Shiao-Ping or Eric's. 


Sylvia 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

It's heat prostration. It was 109F here yesterday!


Oh .... The crust.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

We are having a heat-wave this week-end...89 right now!  Friends in Vegas are reporting areas above 120! 


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


Friends in Vegas are reporting areas above 120! 



I hope they are not baking!


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Well they are, but not bread!


--Pamela

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

I remember those days..but we joked about frying eggs!


Sylvia

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Dad put an oven in an outdoor shed so mom could bake without heating up the house in the summertime...apple pies would be lined up on a table outside!

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I love that story, Sylvia! I do occasionally use my tabletop 'outdoor' convection oven for cooking pies.


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

What a great idea! It almost makes getting a countertop oven worthwhile. Do you think running the oven outdoors when the temperature is over 100F would harm the appliance?


As my wife left to go shopping this morning, she expressed .... concern .... that I was making bread today. (108F, predicted high) She did stop (just) short of questioning my sanity.


Can you imagine? She wanted me to throw away a dough that was already autolysing! 


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I keep mine on the patio in the shade. I've had it for years and don't think the outside temperature in any way harms the oven.


Mine isn't a huge oven so you might have to scale your loaves down a bit to fit them in. I suppose there might be bigger ovens out there too.


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

A WFO is not feasible here due to air pollution concerns, but an outdoor electric oven is very appealing at the moment.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

You should definitely check out what's available. If you are willing to spend some money you could get something that would definitely work. It would probably pay for itself on lower AC bills since where you live is so hot. And, since CA has such a long dry season you would probably be able to use it for at least half of the year.


--Pamela