The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

San Joaquin Sourdough: yet another variation

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

San Joaquin Sourdough: yet another variation

 


The San Joaquin Sourdough has been my wife's favorite bread for quite a while now. It's not that she doesn't like other breads. She thought Salome's Potato-Nut bread that I baked yesterday was “amazing.” But, if I had an “everyday bread,” I guess this would be it. The recipe and background on this bread are described in my blog entry for Pain de Campagne.


While this loaf used the method I have described a number of times, the ingredients were a bit different. I had about 20 gms of 100% hydration starter left over from another bread, so I used it and made up the rest of the 100 gms of starter from my stock 1:3:4 mixed flour starter. I'd exhausted my stock of Giusto's whole rye flour, so I used KAF Pumpernickel, which is more coarsely milled. I figured the 100% hydration starter provided a little more water, but the pumpernickel probably absorbed a little more, so I used 10 gms less water to mix the dough. In other words, I kind of faked it.


The dough tripled during cold retardation in bulk! That's probably why I didn't get much of a rise during proofing or much oven spring. The poor yeastie beasties must have been starved. <sniff>


I baked under an aluminum foil roasting pan for 10 minutes at 480F/Convection, then another 20 minutes at 460F. There wasn't a lot of oven spring, and, while there was respectable bloom, no real ear formed.




 


It turned out that the bread had a nice crumb structure, and the taste was as good as I've ever made, if not better. It was assertively sour, which we like. Interestingly enough, while I'd been having mild problems with the retarded dough being slacker than I wished, this dough was a bit more elastic. I can't explain it, unless it was due to the slightly lower hydration (73% vs. 75%).


I think I'll bake this bread again with 10% pumpernickel flour.


David


 


 

Comments

Pablo's picture
Pablo

Hi David,


On your Pain de Campagne blog entry you say it "It is minimally sour" and this one you said was "assertively sour", although essentially the same formula I believe.  To what do you attribute the difference?  Inquiring minds and palates want to know.


Of course your crumb is fantastic. I hope to approximate that one day.


:-Paul


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Paul.


The best I can offer is educated guesses: 1) longer fermentation at cold temperature, 2) slightly lower hydration dough.


These were "true" with this bake, and they are known to increase acetic acid production by hetero-fermentive lactobacilli.


On the other hand, it's nearly a full moon.


David

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

David,


I thought when starter or dough hydration is higher (and has gone through longer fermentation at cold temp), the bread will be more sour? It's harder for stiff dough (and starter) to develop sourness, isn't it?  Or, are you talking about the difference between very high hydration and slight lower high-hydration?


I would have thought the 100% starter, couple with pumpernickel (milled from 100% rye berries) will give the bread more sourness. 


Shiao-Ping

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Shiao-Ping.


Acetic acid production is enhanced by a lower hydration and cooler fermenting temperature, as I understand it. In general, adding rye to a wheat dough does increase sourness, but I generally add 10% whole rye to this dough. The difference in this case (fine ground vs. coarse ground rye) shouldn't make a difference, AFAIK.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I too think your lack of oven spring was probably owing to the dough tripling during bulk fermentation. As you know I'm a big fan of this bread and all its variations. I've never experienced a lack of oven spring with either the campagne or san joaquin (rye or www) but I have had difficultly getting an ear to form. I've also experienced a lack of ear in other breads that I have cloched and really think that the combination of a wet dough and a cloche makes it more difficult to get the ear.


Of course a lack of ear does not effect the texture or the taste. Perhaps cloched breads don't really even require an ear to get full spring because of the extra moisture provided during the first part of baking.


But the amazing thing is that you still got big holes even without oven spring!


You'll have to come up with a different name for your pumpernickel variation now!


These loaves of yours continue to be staple breads for me.


--Pamela

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

Xaipete,


If there is too much water vapor the scores will not open correctly; they will seal up very quickly, and an "ear" is next to impossible.   I think a wet dough coupled with a cloche would be the worst combination if you want to get a nice grigne.  I find if I had excessive steam in the oven during the initial stage of the bake, it is as if I had brushed the dough with lots of water before loading the dough - the result is a very shining surface with no grigne to speak of.  I have found that the steam is more for the nice browning of the crust, but not for an "ear."  More and more, I am careful with how much steam I put into the oven.


Shiao-Ping

proth5's picture
proth5

and some days - well, you know.


Anyway, I've been doing some small experiments with "how long does the rising power of the yeast really go"and I am not completely sure that the tripling of the dough is the only culprit for your lack of oven spring.  From your remarks on the thread about dough doubling I am wondering if you are being too gentle with the degassing after the bulk ferment.  Again, we tend to think that we must be ever so gentle with the dough, but one of the things that we accomplish when we manipulate the dough is to redistribute the yeast and yeast waste products, so that the yeast has fresh fuel.  So while we don't exactly want the dough to triple during the bulk ferment, one wonders if a good de gassing and a somewhat more iron hand would have restored the possibility of oven spring.  I'm just wondering...


And I wouldn't say this to anyone who didn't have your experience, but although we love our big holey bread and you do have some nice structure there (to quote) "If you have holes where a mouse can hide, that is a shaping flaw."  To me, that kind of goes with my thinking about handling of the dough during shaping.  Not trying to be mean, but we're all here to learn, right?


So much to think about - so few chances to bake...

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Another comment on your tripling: I've probably made your variations about six times, and, now that I think about it I've noticed that the amount of rise I get during bulk fermentation varies. I never really thought much about it. You said it took about 21 hours for your dough to double. For me sometimes the dough hasn't doubled even in 24 hours. When this has happened I've just let it warm up on the counter until it doubled. Other times I had it double faster than 21 hours. I just chalked it up to DDT and the power of my starter. But none of it mattered in the final result: all of the loaves seemed to come out about the same (great).


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I do think that the tripling during cold retardation did impact proofing and oven spring. My experience is like Pamelas - the dough expansion during retardation varies a lot. However, I think this can be accounted for by 1) Differences in dough temperature and 2) How long I wait between the last stretch and fold before putting the dough in the refrigerator. I have experimented with both.


I'm thinking more about this and the issue of degassing the dough. In hindsight, I probably should have done a fold after the dough had been refrigerated an hour or so or refrigerated it sooner. I left it out for an hour before refrigerating it this time.


The comments about over-steaming, especially with slack dough breads and the lack of ear formation are valid. I've worked on getting more steam for a few months. I think I need to be more discriminating in the amount of steam I generate according to the bread.


I learn something new every time I bake.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Leaving it out for an hour before refrigerating it: that's what caused your tripling, and esp. since you had a little instant yeast in it. PR uses that technique to give the fermentation process a running start.


--Pamela

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I too noticed in baking your Pain de Campagne a much slower rise during bulk fermentation. I usually have great tang with the sours I've made, always much lower hydration.  A for grigne, I did get a bit..I did not use the ice in the cast iron, put did pour a cup of boiling water into a hot baking sheet.


Love to learn,


Betty