The Fresh Loaf

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Hamelman's 5-Grain Sourdough Rye with High-gluten flour

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hamelman's 5-Grain Sourdough Rye with High-gluten flour

Hamelman's 5-grain Soudough made with rye sour is currently one of my favorite bread. The formula calls for high-gluten flour, but I have not had any for a while. I now have some KAF Sir Lancelot flour, and this is the first bread in which I used it. 




I followed the formula for ingredients exactly, as I had before. Using Sir Lancelot flour, the gluten developed a little more slowly. I think I could have given the dough another couple minutes mixing in the Bosch. I did a stretch and fold before bulk fermenting, but it could have used either more initial mixing or another stretch and fold.


The crumb was quite chewy. I'll be interested in seeing if this bread seems too "tough" when toasted.


BTW, you might notice in the first photo that the boule on the right has a duller (less reflective) crust. This was the first loaf loaded onto my baking stone, and I steamed the oven after the third loaf was loaded - maybe 45 - 60 seconds later. Even a few seconds baking without steam at the start has a pretty dramatic effect.


David

Comments

plevee's picture
plevee

This is still my favourite everyday bread - There is a batch retarding in the fridge tonight. I've never made it with high gluten flour, just regular 12% protein bread flour. I'll be interested to hear if you prefer this version.


I'm astonished every time I cut into this bread at how a loaf with so many seeds & whole grains can turn out so light. It stays moist for days & makes superb toast.


Yours looks beatiful, but then you've never posted a photo where the bread didn't look great.


Patsy

Shiao-Ping's picture
Shiao-Ping

... great looking sourdough!  You've done so well.  But I am interested to learn why you think another stretch & fold or a bit more mixing is necessary as it seems to me there is good volume supporting good crumb structure in the breads! 


Shiao-Ping

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

Those look perfect from where I sit, David!


This is a great formula. I've only baked it once myself, but I fondly recall being floored by it. In a positive way, of course :) **Must...bake...more...often**


Re: gluten development of the dough, do you think the loaves would benefit from more mixing/folding? From your crumb photo, I'd say it looks pretty spot on. You need to mix more when you're using high-gluten flour though, so perhaps you sensed the dough was a bit loose when you worked it by hand? Also, speaking of high-gluten flour: Do you notice it when you chew the bread? Does this kind of flour lend a "bagel-quality" to ordinary breads? I've never used this kind of flour, so please excuse my ignorance...


While on the multigrain trail, and since you're our resident multigrain expert extraordinaire (do I need to mention that other 5 grain levain in "Bread"?): Do you have a favourite grain/soaker mix? And what's your thoughts on stretching/folding multigrain doughs? Do you think that's a good way to develop gluten also in these doughs, or do you think the presence of grains make this a less efficient technique? I picture huge shards of pumpkin seeds and wheat bran, the same size as Arctic ice bergs, cutting through those fragile gluten strands...


Congratulations once again on the loaves :)


PS: You shouldn't be so harsh on the dude to the right. It's the inner qualities that matter, right? ;)

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, hansjoakim.


I certainly don't see myself as any kind of "multigrain expert!" 


For this bread, I substituted rye meal (pumpernickel flour) for the cracked rye. I used rolled oats, flax seeds and sunflower seeds, per the formula. Because I used meal rather than cracked rye, I used cold water rather than boiling water for the soaker.


This mix gives a very nice texture and flavor.


Regarding the seeds slicing the gluten strands: I was amazed at the crumb structure the first time I made this bread. It certainly isn't dense like a bread with a lot of wheat bran. Maybe Dan or some one else can comment on the gluten cutting effects of seeds vs. bran.


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The crumb on this batch is okay, but I did get a somewhat more open crumb when I made this bread with bread flour rather than high-gluten. It was a bit chewier, maybe.


I had a window pane after I finished mixing, but not very "strong" (I'm not sure what words to use to describe the degrees of window paning.) compared to lower gluten flour. I know high-gluten flour requires more mixing to fully develop the gluten, but Hamelman's instructions imply this dough just requires "some," not full gluten development. It would be nice to have Mr. Hamelman looking over my shoulder to tell me exactly what the target is.


My comments in the original post were "stream of consciousness," not an expression of dissatisfaction. 


As to whether I prefer using bread flour or high-gluten flour, both have good results when the bread is first sliced. As I said, how the crumb chews after the bread is toasted will influence my preference. I'll try to remember to post on that.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Beautiful boules, David!  I think you did a great job getting all three in the oven..It does take some planning and speed..slashing and loading them into the oven!  This takes some real planning on my part because I'm not that fast!   Different batch of loaves different plan!  Sometimes, it's better for me to just bake them separate..then it's another plan about retarding the final proof!  There's alot to think about just loading those loaves...when you think about it! ; )


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks, Sylvia!



There's alot to think about just loading those loaves...when you think about it! 



Aha! There's the problem. Too much thinking.


Pat (proth5) talks about "mental mis en place." This is a very useful procedure. My implementation involves mentally listing each step to be followed and deciding how I will execute it, for example, scoring the loaves, where to place each loaf on the baking stone and in what order, etc.. Only then do I initiate the procedure action sequence. The execution itself is "thoughtless" and therefore without hesitations for decision making and therefore fast (but not rushed).


I have baked many, many batches of 1.5 lb boules. I know I can bake 3 boules on my stone with enough space between them for even browning. (This is not true with slack doughs where the loaves are going to spread significantly once dumped onto the peel.)


With bâtards, I can load 3 at once on a sheet of parchment paper, using a 3/4 sheet pan. I can't do this with boules, unfortunately.


When I get my commercial deck oven and loader, this won't be a problem, of course. (I wish!)


David

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Great loaves David! The crust and crumb look perfect.


You mentioned 1.5 lb boules vs 3 lb - I wonder if you have the same experience I do with regards to crumb. I find that larger boules often lead to denser crumb (especially towards the base). I assumed this was due to insufficient thermal mass from my stone to yield the same sort of spring in a larger boule (in the same time) as a smaller one. Also the shape seems to play a part since batards and baguettes both tend to exhibit a more open crumb compared to boules.  Perhaps I should steam larger loaves longer to try and maintain a larger window for oven spring?


Is this something you have also experienced or do you get a consistent crumb regardless of shape and size?


Thanks,


FP

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I do get denser crumb on the bottom fairly often. I've assumed it has to do with how I form the boules and the weight of the dough pressing down on the bottom. My stone is generally heated for an hour. I would think it would have the opposite effect on oven spring, but I dunno.


When I make larger loaves, they are generally miches that are higher hydration, so another variable is in play.


David

proth5's picture
proth5

I have dreams about those... (and sheeters) My poor old oven really needs to be replaced, but I can't bring myself to do it because what I really want is a commercial deck oven. But I was working with a Pavailler oven and was told I would still have to rotate my pans because even in this great oven there were hot spots.  But then I just had to push a button to get beautiful steam...


Try this challenge - I can load two baguettes in one shot using nothing but a lightly floured peel.


Great looking loaves.  I was going to get about working with rye, but somehow got sidetracked.  I really need to figure out how to work rye baking into my schedule.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Loading: I can handle the procedures reasonably well. My problem is one of geometry.


Rye baking: If you have not baked with rye before, you have a great adventure ahead.  (Note: I'm serious, for a change.) It seems to me that the diversity of rye breads is actually greater than that of wheat breads. I think I've barely started my own exploration, having not yet baked from the rich Scandinavian rye tradition, for example.


As far as scheduling goes, many rye breads have a short fermentation and proofing compared to wheat breads. Most of the baking time is in building the rye sour. Now, many of these breads are spiked with commercial yeast, which does speed things up. But so much of the flavor comes from the sour, I don't see this as anything but a welcome convenience. 


David

proth5's picture
proth5

I've found I can load the two baguettes, but I have to load them diagonally across the stone to get any kind of decent results.  Took a while to get the hand skills to do that - had more than one "horrible loading accident."  But try it sometime, it's kind of fun.


I've done some rye breads and they are a different beastie.  I do have problems with the elapsed time to build the rye sour because of my work/travel schedule and I think that's what derailed the effort.  I considered using commercial yeast, but it seemed wrong. 


Thanks for for the inspiration, though.  I'd really like to get back to the rye project, if I can figure out the schedule... 

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Hi David. Your boules look very attractive with your usual excellent scoring! On the high extraction flour: is that the same as 1st clear flour (KA)? I've got a sack of that and have been trying to remember why I bought it for a week now. I must have had some intended use for it but can't recall.


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

If I typed "high extraction," it was an error. I used high gluten flour, specifically, KAF Sir Lancelot for these breads.


It turns out that First Clear flour is not really a high extraction flour. It is relatively high in protein and in ash. I have used it extensively in recipes that call for high extraction flour. I have also used a true high extraction flour, Golden Buffalo, and it's behavior and flavor is pretty similar to First Clear.


The main use of First Clear is as the wheat flour in Jewish Sour Rye and Pumpernickel. If you have never made these, you might try them. If you search on "Jewish Sour Rye" on TFL, you should find Norm's formula and George Greenstein's. They produce almost identical, delicious, authentic NY Deli Rye Bread.


I have also used First Clear to make the Poilâne Miche from BBA and the Miche, Ponte-à-Calliere from Hamelman with  great success. KAF says that First Clear is also very good for feeding your sourdough starter.


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Oh, David, I probably misread your original post! I've been struggling with repairing the Windows platform of my Mac all weekend and, well let's just say it was one repair after another and although everything is back together now, I'm in need of a good night's sleep.


Thanks for your recommendations on the use of my 1st clear flour. I'll check them out.


--Pamela