Submitted by PeterPiper on June 16, 2009 - 4:25pm

Online selling

I've been looking into expanding my very small bakery business.  Right now I'm just selling to co-workers and friends, but have been looking into California regulations for operating a commercial kitchen.  Basically there is no way to convert any home operation to something that would pass the California Retail Food Code.  Has anyone out there been selling at farmer's markets without going through the Dept. of Environmental Health?  I saw some mention of bread being a non-hazardous food product but can't find any exceptions in the CA Retail Food Code. 

Another question:  by using an online service like Etsy, I would assume you are still required to be selling a legal product, which may mean operating from a licensed commercial kitchen.  But since you are potentially selling out of state, under which jurisdiction do you operate? 

I'd love to be able to sell more bread but it seems the regulatory hurdles are just too immense, even if I want to sell a little bread at the local farmer's market.

Thanks for any advice!

-Peter

Jurisdiction

Since you are producing the goods in California, you're governed by their rules, regulations and statutes.  California is probably the most over-regulated state in the nation.  

Ohio, on the other hand, has a very friendly attitude towards home bakers, having enacted a cottage food policy which is being expanded.

Per this Texas link, a few other states have cottage food laws.

Sorry....

 

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I too, live in California

Hi Peter,

I am doing the same thing; looking into selling at Farmer's Markets. I live in the greater Los Angeles area and boy are there some strict guidelines for selling. You have to be "chosen" to sell at MANY of the Farmer's Markets, by THEIR organization. Whatever happened to "craftsmen" being able to sell their goods to every day people and not having to "pass muster" by a board of the "chosen few"? I feel like I'm trying to buy a co-op in NY City... It's frustrating and depressing.

One absolute essential is that you get a Food Handlers Certificate in order to sell anywhere. You also have to find a commercial kitchen that has passed inspection by the Health Dept.

What area do you live in? Maybe we can put our heads together on this..

 

Wendy

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I think your best bet in CA

I think your best bet in CA is to rent space in a community kitchen. Selling your wares at a farmer's market appears to be relatively simple and inexpensive. I looked into the market in Santa Rosa. If you are a veteran I think the cost was just $10. Most markets have the information online.

--Pamela

I, as well, live in the

I, as well, live in the Greater LA/OC area, and I can tell you that the Farmer's Markets aren't what they used to be 10-15 years ago... it ain't all Mayberry any longer. : /

Like anything else, they've realized that the sheer numbers of potential sellers is overwhelming, so they can be pretty choosy.. especially for the prepared food providers versus the agriculture providers. You have to get out to the rural areas to escape the insurmountable competition around here (Orange County is just as bad!).

In the end, the few have spoiled it for the many, and the county has had to make it nearly impossible for the small-time entrepreneur. While sad, I have to agree that they are protecting people in the end. Due to the sheer numbers of people who want to make money, there are always a few who will cut too many corners where health issues are concerned. Being a melting pot, you also get a lot of transplanted people who come from places where sanitation is down the list of priorities a ways.

It does make me really angry, though, because I would like to have the availability of trying to sell some unique products. With gas at $3 a gallon again, it's not acceptable to have to drive 2 or 3 hours to get away from 'the crowd'. Meanwhile, everywhere I drive, there's .99 cent taco wagons and roach coaches everywhere... It isn't fair, but... it is what it is now.

There is a 24/7 community kitchen that was advertised on the news a few months back, and I did the research on it. Very reasonable solution, but kind of pricey. You would be cooking under their state and county permits, but you do have to have a food handling cert, which is around $400 if I recall correctly. So, you would have to find space at a market, then drive to the kitchen to prepare your breads. Driving would most likely have to be done several times, especially if you are making any sourdoughs and/or using cold retardation techniques (you do get your own personal fridge space there). Then you have to bake and get it to the market. While I thought this all the be a sincere PITA, I also realized that since you can ramp up your production to a professional level, it might actually save a LOT of time over trying to produce bulk in a home kitchen. As long as you actually sold enough, the increase in your overhead might get payed for. It would be a gamble the first few trips.

- Keith

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I completely agree with you

I completely agree with you Keith... It's frustrating and depressing trying to deal with all of it; and terribly unfair. The Food Handling Cert is much less that $400; fortunately, but that doesn't preclude all the other hoops we have to jump through. Maybe we should start up our own Farmer's Market Keith!!!

 

Wendy

You know... that's exactly

You know... that's exactly what it would take... a combined effort between two or more parties. That kind of plays into 'their' hand, no? I mean, a combined effort usually means two heads are better than one, and most likely all the right things will go down in the right order without shortcuts. There's a lot to protect!

- Keith

This is the Shared Commercial

This is the Shared Commercial Kitchen I saw on the news... there may be others, but this site will certainly give you the overview of what types of things you can expect:

http://www.chefskitchens.com/index.php

In addition to the Food Handling cert, each baker needs insurance, but you can gleen all of that from the website. They pretty much lay it all out, and it's pretty friendly surfing.

- Keith

Government's in your face

Here's a fun article from the WSJ on an incident in Pennsylvania.  I'd retitle it "Protect us from our protectors."

BTW, the FDA regulates all interstate sales, so in addition to state law, you'd have to comply with federal law if going the cyberspace sales route.

 

Cottage baking

I like the cottage option available for some states, and see that California is indeed tight about food production.  I somewhat agree with Keith that sanitation should be controlled and monitored, but I would love to pay to have my home kitchen inspected and certified once every year or two.  But since I have a full-time job and a young child, I don't have time to rent space at a commercial kitchen.  The only way I'm able to bake so much is that I can do it at night at home, amongst my other chores.  Having to leave the house would pretty much squash any chance of this working.

I already got my food handler's certificate, though I think it's linked to the specific bakery at which I was apprenticing.  It didn't cost $400 so maybe that's something else?

Pamela--the only loophole I found for using a home kitchen is if you run a B&B.  It's buried in the CA Retail Food Code.  I may talk to a restaurant planning company to see if they know of any other loopholes.

Finally, in response to Lindy, I see a lot of people on Etsy selling baked goods and I can't imagine a single one is using a commercial kitchen and complying with state AND federal guidelines.  But saying, "They can do it," is like pointing out speeders on the highway.  Yeah, they're all breaking the law, but it doesn't mean you can do it.

 

-Peter

Community Kitchen.....

I live in the OC and would love any information on a community kitchen in this area.  Driving to LA to use the kitchen up there just won't fit into my schedule; it does look like a great place to bake. 

Robin

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Look at your community

Look at your community resources to see if there is a community center kitchen that you can rent.

--Pamela

Kitchen Incubators in CA

Check out http://www.culinaryincubator.com/maps.php

Maybe something there.

 

Regulated out

After reading through most of the CA Retail Food Code and checking up on business licenses and other required certificates, it looks like there's no way for anyone in California to sell bread without being a full-on commercial bakery.  Forget any type of cottage industry or even a small bakery.  Based on the costs of renting space at a community kitchen, you'd have to be working at least 20-30 hours a week on bread just to break even with the fees, not to mention the fees to get space at a farmer's market.  At that point you're better off leasing a space and trying to start a full-size commercial bakery.

I understand there are food safety concerns about people selling food made in their homes, but California has built such high regulatory walls that nobody, and I mean nobody, can sell on a small scale.  Anyone who does, or sells online, is breaking the law, at least here in the Golden State.

Sorry to be such a downer, but the law's the law, and us home bakers in California are totally out of luck.

-Peter

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Space at the farmer's market

Space at the farmer's market for veterans in Santa Rosa is $10. Community kitchen rental runs about $6 per hour depending on where you go.

--Pamela

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I agree with Peter

Whoever found a commercial kitchen to use in Santa Rosa for $6 an hour has hit upon a gold mine!!!! NO WAY you would find something that reasonable in LA or Orange County. The "Community Kitchen" in LA runs a minimum of $25 an hour, and there are other fees tacked on to that!!! Some of the local Farmer's Markets charge 10% of daily sales; not sure about the others. That also doesn't take into consideration the time and distance you have to drive to various Farmer's Markets because you really can't make much of a profit selling for only 3-5 hrs a day; which is the average time of most of the FM's around here.

I have NO PROBLEM at all with all the necessary certificates, insurance, etc. But I DO have issues with the "acceptance" policy of most of the FM's around here. I liken it to trying to purchase a "co-op" and having to pass muster with the "board of directors". It's terribly wrong that they allow only "certain" individuals to sell at their FM's. And with very few spaces ever becoming available, it's next to impossible to ever obtain a space... VERY discouraging....

The train of thought there

The train of thought there is, the bulk of available space is reserved/preferred to go to agriculture sellers (the whole reason it's called a Farmer's Market). The very few spaces left for prepared food items obviously allows market managers the ability to be very picky, if not downright discriminatory. I can't recall, because it's been so long since I've been to one, but do Swap Meets allow for these types of goods?

- Keith

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Among friends and neighbors

You could also develop a clientele among your friends and neighbors, and their friends. People will pay for homemade, high quality bread.

--Pamela

Legality

Hi Pamela,

I'd love to find a community kitchen that rents that cheap, but that may be a NorCal thing.  Down here in San Diego, we don't really have those, and the commercial kitchens are from $16-25/hr.  We don't have a commercial rental kitchen here either, though I saw an old ad for one in SD that said it didn't want bakers or caterers, and I'm wondering what the $#@&! they would allow.

I'm selling to friends, neighbors, and co-workers right now and have joked that I'm waiting for the DEH to come knocking on my door with a fine and a cease-and-desist.  Even now I'm breaking the law, but I don't want to stop baking at home.  I guess it's a moral issue.  Does anyone else here sell home-baked goods without a business license, food handler's cert, and all the other regulatory mumbo-jumbo?

 

Peter

 

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Did you check community

Did you check community centers? Churches? Etc.?

I won't worry about the morality of selling to my neighbors and friends. Esp. in California! You can call the money you receive a 'donation'.

Churches often host crab bakes, etc. How do they do it? They must have some kind of certificate of sanitation, or whatever it is called.

--Pamela

I hate to add more rain to

I hate to add more rain to the thunderstorm, but even selling to friends/neighbors/co-workers can put you in a very precarious liability situation. If any of those people get sick (for ANY reason whatsoever) and think it might have been something you sold them, it is going to get really ugly, really quick. I think family is safest, followed by friends. Neighbors? Well, I've seen neighbors who lived peacefully for decades erupt into wars over very stupid things. Very risky there... Co-workers? Wow, that the biggest risk of all, because now you are also involving your employer, who might get drawn up into civil liability if you did any transactions on their property. This is 2009. It can happen. People are crazy.

- Keith

Liability

After reading everyone's comments, it sounds like what I need to do is slap a label on every one of my loaves of bread with the following:

This bread is made from flour with uknown provenance and the baker has not personally certified the milling, processing, and packaging of each grain of wheat.  Furthermore, the enamel baking process to line the inside of the baker's oven was not personally certified by the baker to be in compliance with SCAQMD guidelines for low-VOC processes.  Any ingredients handled by the baker were touched by hands that while washed with soap and hot water, did not undergo Stage Five nuclear decontamination procedures, thus leaving the possibility of contaminants of cancer-causing origination at some point during the baker's lifetime.  Anyone consuming this bread does so at their own risk and will not hold the baker, the baker's family, pets, relatives, co-workers, childhood friends, preschool teachers, or subway-riding companions liable for any damages, accidents, mishaps, or upset tummies.  Furthermore, anyone who even looks at this bread will pretend they did not see it and will not pursue legal action.

If this sounds reactionary, you haven't seen some of the warning labels on kids' toys recently, which unfold as a three-foot long rap sheet.  While I admire the intention to protect each American from personal injury, I can't help but wonder how cottage baking laws have passed in some states, while California works as hard as possible to prevent anyone from making, selling, or consuming food.  I plan on continuing to sell my bread to folks, but am going to change the description to 'day-old bread' and will request donations rather than charge a fee.  Hooray capitalism!

-Peter

Labeling

All home-based bakers should be following the labeling requirement recommended by their state regulatory agency. You can all the agency or the health department or your state department of agriculture.

The federal gov. also have a wonderful website on lableing.

 

Would be real nice if any of

Would be real nice if any of us in CA could even get close enough to the other requirements, much less labels... we'd be happy if that was the problem! lol

- Keith

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And don't forget the best

And don't forget the best one;

 

Warning; POISON, do not eat/drink/ingest/inhale

 

Have we really become this "Dumbed Down"????

 

 

Wendy

in a word YES

i bought a new battery for my laptop and stuck in with the rest on the stuff was and i am not kidding

do not hammer a nail into the battery, do not drill into the battery

Incubator Kitchens

There are a number of incubator kitchens poping up all over the place and you may want to check them out. You may also want to consider operating your own incubator. there is a company called NxLevel that sells a CD that will assist you in developing a shared kitchen program.

I don't know CA law, but in

I don't know CA law, but in Iowa, the one food exception is non hazardous baked goods at a farmer's markte. Otherwise, you need a commerical kitchen.There are options out there as far as rentals go, although that is an added expense. WE've looked around a little, and it just isn't cost effective for us.Unfortunately, other things my wife would like to do to expand (sell to restaurants and such) can't be done from home.

 

Farmer's market policies are all over the place. Here, it is 100 bucks a year for the spot, and you get to keep all your income.

 

I think selling over the net would be worse, as you are basically tapping into federal regs if you cross state lines.

 

Selling Online

You will need to work with your state regulatory agency and investigate the rule and regs for selling online (they can tell you about outside state requirements), not as difficult as you might think. You can work with your state Dept. of Ag or your regulator agency. You have to complete a Prior Notice online and other requirements to let the feds know what you are selling. It is a bit involved but worth it to many small business owners. Most just don't want to jump through the hoops; however for those who do,  it really weeds out a lot of online competition. I understand your point thou. Have a great day!

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