So it's called: "the double flour addition technique"... DFAT for short. Always wondered if it had a specific name. The technique is very familiar to me. With home mixers, the standard, at least I thought so. I more or less grew up with the method for a fine textured crumb.
One Question (or possibly three, no trick Q's, I just want your experienced opinion):
If I were to let the dough autolyze (I love to autolyze for the gluten's sake) and just let it sit there for 20 minutes, would it make more sense to do it before or after incorporating the second batch of flour? Or do both -- after wisking, let it rest 20 minutes and then incorporate the rest of the flour and rest again 20 minutes, then mix in the salt, shape and put aside for a bulk ferment? Or only do a "double autolyze" when hand mixing?
Since one of the purposes of an autolyse step is to allow all the flour to fully hydrate before mixing, performing an autolyse after all the flour has been incorporated would seem to make the most sense.
Thanks for the quick come back. Now that I have your attention... there is something that has been pestering me. The thought about high gluten flours needing more gluten development than low gluten flours puzzles me.
"Because doughs made with high gluten flour can be difficult to properly develop in a home stand mixer using conventional techniques,..."
Wouldn't it be just the opposite? Wouldn't low gluten flours need more attention to bring out the gluten structure? I seem to be missing something somewhere. Has it to do with low hydration high gluten mixing as opposed to low hydration low gluten mixing? Or am I confusing dough development with gluten development?
Mini, doughs made with higher protein flours require more mixing than doughs made with lower protein flours to reach comparable levels of development. For an excellent discussion of the effect of protein level on mixing, see p. 50 of Dan DiMuzio's new book, Bread Baking: An Artisan's Perspective.
It's such a pleasure to read your blog and every time you update it, I'm awestruck by your perfect loaves (or bialys)!
I'm wondering about the use of high gluten flour in bagels and bialys. I believe bagels were first made in Krakow, and bialys, as you write, originate from Bialystok. Both are chewy rolls (that are excellent with smoked or cured salmon!). I'm wondering whether the original products were also made with flour of high gluten content, or if this is a "modern twist" on the classic formulas? Perhaps wheat from Poland/East Europe was quite high in protein in the old days too?
You raise a very interesting question, one that, unfortunately, I am ill-prepared to answer. Perhaps someone reading this who has detailed knowledge of the historical origins of the bagel and bialy would care to weigh in.
but the origin of winter wheat in the U.S. is said to have been with Slavic settlers who came here with what is known on this side of the Atlantic as the "Turkey Red" strain of winter wheat. If memory serves (and it so frequently doesn't!), that is a hard variety of wheat. It certainly seems possible that the people of eastern Europe were accustomed to hard wheats.
Back then, in the very beginning of the XX century when mass migration of Polish Jews started, and bagels and bialys arrived here the predominant variety of wheat grown in Poland was sandomirka, soft red winter wheat, with average gluten content in 9-10% range. There's also every reason to believe that the bakeries by and large were not mechanized. So that of course does not correlate well with how Glezer and others describe the modern bialy process. What most likely happened is that just like many other European immigrants, Jewish bakers discovered new and affordable ingredients and adjusted correspondingly.
Thanks, Steve, for posting the topic and link to your blog. I don't always remember to check your blog every week so am glad you let us know about the bialys. They look terrific--just like everything you bake.
I've only made bialys once because I ate them all within a few hours! I'll have to find some people to be around when they come out of the oven next time.
Thanks SteveB
So it's called: "the double flour addition technique"... DFAT for short. Always wondered if it had a specific name. The technique is very familiar to me. With home mixers, the standard, at least I thought so. I more or less grew up with the method for a fine textured crumb.
One Question (or possibly three, no trick Q's, I just want your experienced opinion):
If I were to let the dough autolyze (I love to autolyze for the gluten's sake) and just let it sit there for 20 minutes, would it make more sense to do it before or after incorporating the second batch of flour? Or do both -- after wisking, let it rest 20 minutes and then incorporate the rest of the flour and rest again 20 minutes, then mix in the salt, shape and put aside for a bulk ferment? Or only do a "double autolyze" when hand mixing?
Mini
Autolyse
Mini, the double flour addition technique doesn't necessarily lead to a fine textured crumb. See, for example:
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=157 or
http://www.breadcetera.com/?p=162
Since one of the purposes of an autolyse step is to allow all the flour to fully hydrate before mixing, performing an autolyse after all the flour has been incorporated would seem to make the most sense.
SteveB
http://www.breadcetera.com
There is no denying you make great breads!
Thanks for the quick come back. Now that I have your attention... there is something that has been pestering me. The thought about high gluten flours needing more gluten development than low gluten flours puzzles me.
Wouldn't it be just the opposite? Wouldn't low gluten flours need more attention to bring out the gluten structure? I seem to be missing something somewhere. Has it to do with low hydration high gluten mixing as opposed to low hydration low gluten mixing? Or am I confusing dough development with gluten development?
Mini
Mixing With High-Protein Flours
Mini, doughs made with higher protein flours require more mixing than doughs made with lower protein flours to reach comparable levels of development. For an excellent discussion of the effect of protein level on mixing, see p. 50 of Dan DiMuzio's new book, Bread Baking: An Artisan's Perspective.
SteveB
http://www.breadcetera.com
Bagels, bialys and high gluten flour
Hi Steve,
It's such a pleasure to read your blog and every time you update it, I'm awestruck by your perfect loaves (or bialys)!
I'm wondering about the use of high gluten flour in bagels and bialys. I believe bagels were first made in Krakow, and bialys, as you write, originate from Bialystok. Both are chewy rolls (that are excellent with smoked or cured salmon!). I'm wondering whether the original products were also made with flour of high gluten content, or if this is a "modern twist" on the classic formulas? Perhaps wheat from Poland/East Europe was quite high in protein in the old days too?
Bagel, Bialy Origins
Hans,
Your kind words are greatly appreciated.
You raise a very interesting question, one that, unfortunately, I am ill-prepared to answer. Perhaps someone reading this who has detailed knowledge of the historical origins of the bagel and bialy would care to weigh in.
SteveB
http://www.breadcetera.com
It's just a guess,
but the origin of winter wheat in the U.S. is said to have been with Slavic settlers who came here with what is known on this side of the Atlantic as the "Turkey Red" strain of winter wheat. If memory serves (and it so frequently doesn't!), that is a hard variety of wheat. It certainly seems possible that the people of eastern Europe were accustomed to hard wheats.
Paul
Back then, in the very
Back then, in the very beginning of the XX century when mass migration of Polish Jews started, and bagels and bialys arrived here the predominant variety of wheat grown in Poland was sandomirka, soft red winter wheat, with average gluten content in 9-10% range. There's also every reason to believe that the bakeries by and large were not mechanized. So that of course does not correlate well with how Glezer and others describe the modern bialy process. What most likely happened is that just like many other European immigrants, Jewish bakers discovered new and affordable ingredients and adjusted correspondingly.
Thanks! That's very
Thanks! That's very interesting, suave.
Thanks, Steve, for posting
Thanks, Steve, for posting the topic and link to your blog. I don't always remember to check your blog every week so am glad you let us know about the bialys. They look terrific--just like everything you bake.
I've only made bialys once because I ate them all within a few hours! I'll have to find some people to be around when they come out of the oven next time.
--Pamela