The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Wild yeast starter question

Breadsy's picture
Breadsy

Wild yeast starter question

I'm using Peter Reinhart's BBA method for creating wild yeast starter.  I'm on Day 3, the first day of discarding the excess.  Instead of discarding, I simply divided in half.  One half I fed with unbleached bread flour (as per the BBA), the other half I fed with rye flour.  Is this how I should develop a true rye starter?  I had GREAT luck with this by-the-book method last Spring ... until I threw it away.  Now starting over.  Thanks for your help:  I'm a beginner sourdough student of this website.

cognitivefun's picture
cognitivefun

I'm not sure it matters making a separate rye starter. Rye is so wonderful at starting that I doubt you need a separate starter for rye.

When I make rye bread, I use my white starter, add some rye flour to it and in about 8 hours left out on the counter, it is fabulously bubbling away. 

 

 

breadnerd's picture
breadnerd

If I have a recipe with a rye starter, I just divide up my current "chef" and start feeding it with rye. I would think after a few days refreshment it would be mostly rye.

I've also read that rye flour is a good addition to a newish starter because it helps boost fermentation, If I recall.

 

Good luck!

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I baked off 2 loaves of sourdough rye today. My starter came from SourDoLady and I used BBA's New York Deli Rye recipe, which adds rye flour to the starter and final dough..the aroma baking was awesome, my husband could hardly wait until it was baked, never mind cooled a bit.

If you want a true 100% Sourdough Rye, turn to page 239 of the BBA. I think the commentary will answer your questions.

Enjoy!

Breadsy's picture
Breadsy

Okay, for that New York Deli Rye recipe in the BBA, it calls for "white rye."  Where does one find that??  I want to try that one this weekend.    Thanks for your help!

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I would bet that he is referring to what is usually labeled "light rye". The other two grades are "medium " and "pumpernickel" or "dark". The darker the flour the greater the percentage of hull and the less finely the flour is milled.  Light rye is pretty darn near white in color until you mix it with water.

 

sPh

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

I used Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye..but my bread looked and tasted like a New England deli rye. It did not look like pumpernickel ! When I have made pumpernickel, you add cocoa, coffee, brown sugar or molasses..which gives the bread its dark color.

I am not disagreeing with sPH, just saying that you can make an awesome rye with "dark" rye flour, aroma, taste on a par with "deli rye"..gotta have caraway seeds though..yum!

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I agree; I usually use the darker rye flours myself. The final color of the bread depends on the other ingredients - the rye flour (even pumpernickel) doesn't add much color.

 

sPh

firepit's picture
firepit

So I'm obviously several months behind the rest of you, but I received a copy of the BBA for Christmas and I'm looking forward to making some great sourdough and rye breads. Last night I began my starter, and I'm a bit confused, so I'm hoping someone can provide a little clarity. Reinhart says that 4.25 oz of dark rye flour and 6 oz of water (pineapple juice), should make a "stiff ball of dough" and says not to worry if it's very stiff. However, very stiff does not appear to be my problem - with those proportions I have what I would describe as a thick batter, not a dough at all.

 

So I hopped online and looked for any errata or corrections, or other people commenting on this discrepancy, and I couldn't find anything. Most comment's about Reinhart's starters are like Breadsy's, starting with question on day 3 or so... I'm looking for guidance since many of you have obviously used his methods. Have I misinterpreted "stiff dough", is there an error in the measurements, or is there some other explanation?

 

Thanks!

 

demegrad's picture
demegrad

I also got BBA for christmas but have been baking breads for about a year now, and working with a sourdough starter for about several months.  I believe you might have though measurements backwards, but I can't recall, I'll have to look it up.  All I do remember about that starter build up is that in the end it comes to nearly a 100% hydration starter.

I thought Day 1 was 6 oz flour, 4.25 oz water, then Day 2,3,and, 4 were all 4 oz  flour and 4.5 oz water. Which would be like I said in the end nearly 100%hydration with a stiff dough at the begining.  But like I said I can't recall exactly, I just remember adding it up to come out near 100%.  In any case I can look it up and confirm with you if noone does before I get the chance.  Good Luck! I love rye breads to.

 

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

demegrad's picture
demegrad

 Sorry, I was wrong, I checked my book and it definitely says Day 1 4.25 oz of flour and 6 oz water.  How in the world this is supposed to form a stiff dough, I've got no clue.  Hope this works out for you, let us know!

\demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Firepit, I had the same experience about a month ago, you can see the thread discussion on that here. Don't worry about the batter or paste-like consistency, that will work fine.

firepit's picture
firepit

Interesting. It turns out I went through about the same thought process as you. After making the starter and realizing the consistency was wrong, I scoured the internet for corrections. Finding none, I figured that it was much easier to make a printing error on the numbers than it was to mistakenly write "stiff dough", so I kept adding rye flour until I had a stiff dough. Then I called it a night. I woke up this morning and stewed about it until I decided that I'd ruined the starter by adding the extra flour, so I started over, following the directions exactly (using pineapple juice in place of water - the one correction I did find last night), and then posted here.

Thanks for your advice, and for the info from the other thread. It's always good to know that other people have less-than-steller first attempts, too. Sometime early next week, maybe I'll have some bread...

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi re the consistency of your dough when making a starter, it really doesn't matter much. You'll still get there in the end. I prefer to mix 50:50 rye and whet, the pineapple works well at keeping away the leuconostoc too. It also really doesn't matter what day you're up to or the exact measurement. I've made loads of starter just for the knowledge. A good rule of thumb is a nice simple equal proportions of starter, flour and water. It really isn't important, I can't stress that enough. As soon as the starter gets going you need to feed more. 1:5:5  more or less starter to flour to water twice a day until the starter is active. When it is active. Store it in the fridge when not using it and feed it well when you are. So much rubbish is written about feeding starters it isn't funny. Only make what you need and only store what you need. You don't need cups of starter in your fridge. I don't store more than 2 ounces.  
Jim 

firepit's picture
firepit

OK, so you all have convinced me that the batter consistency of my starter isn't a problem, so I've been following the BBA's methods for the last few days. I used dark rye flour (Bob's Red Mill) and pineapple juice on day one, then switched to bread flour on day two, and switched to water this morning, day three.

 

But I've had no signs of life. Not a bit of rise at all. Not after day two, and not now, about half way through day three. I suspect that I should just keep halving and feeding until the thing wakes up, right? I also plan to switch to the mythical grape water at tomorrow's feeding to see if perhaps I just got some yeast-free flour. If this is not the right approach, I'd love to receive advice.

 

Second question - I'm using a tall and narrow container (maybe 3"x4" on the base and 8" tall, yes, it's very hard to stir...) to hold the starter on the belief that:

1) it's easier to track the rise in a column than it is a larger, flatter container
2) less exposed surface area makes it less likely to dry out.

But it could be that I need more surface area for whatever reason - more air to breath, more exposure to friendly bacteria...Should I switch containers?

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Firepit - day 3 is way too soon to worry, I did not see any activity in my starter until at least day 5 or 6, and even then just a few bubbles without any rise. But all of sudden by day 7 or 8, wham, it went crazy, here is a pic of how it looked here. Just be patient, you're doing all the right things. All I used was flour and water after day 3. Your container sounds fine too. I think mine may have been a little slow at first due to my cold house (58-62F), so when I moved it to a 70F spot, it matured much faster.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Yeah the temp makes a big difference. Three days even with a good temp is quick for a new starter. The first summer I started experimenting with growing new starters I had a few that were going at three and four days. But during the winter 5 days is much more common. I even had one that I gave up on altogether but that was just rye, no wheat at all. I only ever made one bade starter other than the one I chucked too. So the good news is keep going no news is good news with new starters. At least you don't have the dreaded leuconostoc but even that wouldn't be a chucker. Which starter do I use? The very first one I ever made. : -) 

Jim

dasein668's picture
dasein668

Like others here I had the same thing. Batter! But it still got things going, and after reading some other books and some posts here I just kept working towards a stiff dough with each refreshment. I know that the BBA goes towards a wetter starter, but I've had good luck using a very dry starter for a little over a month now (maybe 4 or 5 loafs baked during that time). Stiff like bagel dough or even stiffer. Seems to work great!

Nathan Sanborn

dasein668.com

brushfiremedia.com

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

When I want to make a rye starter I just use my normal starter and feed with rye. It works really well. I did make this starter with rye and wheat a long time ago. I've even used my starter as is for 30% rye bread with great results. I really don't think it's important how you make your starter in the beginning as long as it works for what you want. A rose by any other name etc. : -)

 Jim

demegrad's picture
demegrad

I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say I completely agree with your thoughts on using sourdough starters.  For instance I only keep one starter, why, because it's simple and I'm not wasting tons of flour feeding multiple starters.  And I have found I can use what I have to use directing into most recipes or just do a one or two day build at the most.  Maybe the bread isn't exactly the same as what it supposed to be, but how am I supposed to know what it's supposed to taste like, other than asking peter reinhart to bake a loaf of bread just for me and going to wherever just so I can eat it at the peak time.  Maybe I'll just use what I got and make good tasting bread and eat it at my leisure.

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

breadnerd's picture
breadnerd

I didn't make my starter from BBA, but my experience wth other Reinhart recipes is that his description of something "forming a ball" is often pastelike for me. I don't know if it's a big difference in flours, or just a perception/vocabulary thing? But, I have also found that the overal hydration for the dough is usually perfectly okay--for example, if the preferment is supposed to be a ball of dough, and I find it more like a slurry--if I continue on without changing the recipe the final dough is just fine.

 

So, you're not alone! 

firepit's picture
firepit

Welcome to day 8. For a few days after my last post I had some small bubbles but no discernible rise. My wife tried to convince me that perhaps I needed to spend more time talking with the starter, naming it, and affirming its great progress, but I resisted. Yesterday before I left for the day, I turned up the heat in the house and moved the starter to a closed room. When I got home I finally had about a 50% rise and the starter smells just like sourdough, so I think that's a good sign. I fed it again this morning, repeated the temperature manipulation, and headed out. Hopefully I won't be disappointed when I get home tonight. We're traveling to a friend's house this weekend and I'd love to have some sourdough to take along.

Today's questions: In the BBA Peter Reinhart suggests turning the starter into a barm and then maintaining the barm in the fridge long term. Is there any reason not to keep the starter itself instead? After all it's been 8 days and I'm growing a bit attached to it. It seems like an either/or thing, but I wanted to check that there wasn't a good reason to prefer one way or the other...

Second, instead of keeping the house "hot" for a few days at a time whenever I want to wake the starter up, I'm excited by the prospect of building a proofing box. I've done some reading of various techniques (lights, aquarium heaters, heating pads), so I'm OK on the how-to-do-it front. What I'm wondering is if people have advice on size? Does anyone regret having a box that is too small or too large? I'm thinking about making it deep enough to hold the largest bowl I would use, wide enough to hold a 1/2 sheet pan, and, I don't know, 18" tall. Other than storage and the extra energy to keep it warm, any reason not to go large?

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

with the light turned on will give you a warm environment for your starter or for a rise in a cool room...cheap too! Good luck

sewwhatsports's picture
sewwhatsports

Today's questions: In the BBA Peter Reinhart suggests turning the starter into a barm and then maintaining the barm in the fridge long term.

I have a question.  What is the difference between a barm and keeping a stiff starter in the refrigerator?  What makes it a barm?

Rena in Delaware

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

This is a mistake by Peter, he doesn't mean turn it into a Barm at all. I haven't got the book to hand but really don't worry about it. There's two things about the starter you need to know when you make a recipe. How much flour and water is in the starter and how much starter to use. Most people maintain a 100% starter that is equal weights flour and water, why because a, it's easier to work with and easy to calculate the amount of flour and water, b, it tastes better than a starter at 67% and there's not point going over 96% anyway other than the above example for simplicity. Some people store their starter in the fridge at low hydration, they say it lasts longer that way. If like me you bake twice a week that doesn't matter. Don't worry too much about what you read in a book. I have a lot of respect for PR but many things are peculiar to the baker rather than being important. Of course as a novice your can't separate the wheat from the chaff.
Oh yes, just call your starter a 'starter' don't worry about barm, chef, mother, sponge, leaven, it's a starter. I hate sponge, it's another word that is wrongly used.
Jim

firepit's picture
firepit

Thanks! I had a hunch that keeping the original starter was the way to go, but figured I should check in with folks who are far more knowledgeable than I.

I'm still concerned about the starter...Another day of warm temperatures and another day of only a 50% rise. I'm beginning to wonder if perhaps the starter is ready to go, but the fact that it's a batter (as opposed to a dough) is preventing a bigger rise. Are the gases are just bubbling out instead of puffing the thing up? At 100% hydration (a bit less, actually, as I'm adding 4.5 oz of flour and 4 oz. of water per feeding), it's a thick batter right after a feed it, but thin enough to pour out of the container by the next morning.

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

I agree with Jim's comments on the terminology. I also made my starter from BBA about a month ago, and it got better and more active after I sort of ignored the books and went with my instincts, which was to feed it once a day with equal weights flour and water and old starter, making it 100% hydration. My house is cool so once a day seems to be keeping it very active and healthy, if I had a warmer house, I'd probably feed it twice daily. I did a lot of experimenting the past few weeks and have come to my own conclusion that the wet starter (100% hydration) works better for me than the stiff one does. My stiff starter is not as active, and I've had trouble more than once with loaves not rising fully when made with the stiff starter, vs. the same exact recipe made at the same time with the wet starter which makes the dough rise extremely well. From now on, any recipes calling for a stiff starter, I just use a bit more of the wet starter and less water and more flour to even out the consistency of the final dough. So no, I would not think that making a stiffer starter will give you a bigger rise, in fact my own experience has shown the opposite to be true for me, under the conditions in my house at any rate.

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Hi Try this, when I decided I was going to keep my starter out on the counter it was great, but slowly went into decline. I as feeding equal parts starter, flour and water. After about 3 weeks I was getting no rise at all. I was just about to ask the group about this then decided to ask myself first. : -) The reply I gave was you aren't feeding your starter enough. Okay I wasn't carted off to Bedlam down the road but started feeding 1:6:6 twice a day and it is still going strong. I even feed more than this sometimes even when it's going to go back in the fridge. 

hope this helps. 
Jim

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Jim - I'll keep the 1:6:6 in mind if my wet starter looks like it's declining...maybe that's what went wrong with my stiff starter. So far my wet starter is still rising great...maybe wild yeasts in different parts of the world behave differently? It could be the flour-type and the water quality, as well as the temp. that are variables too. In the Bread Alone book, the author even suggests that people living in urban areas have a more difficult time with starters than those living in rural areas, but I'm not sure if that would really have as much of an effect if a lot of the yeast comes from what is naturally on the flour. I'm going by the rule of thumb that if the starter at least rises to triple within 6-10 hrs of last feeding, it's active enough to raise a large loaf - do you find that to be the case also?

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

There are only a handful of organisms that survive in a starter. lactobacillus sf. has been found naturally in Africa I won't go into where. These 'domesticated' organisms go where we go. Since we go everywhere it stands to reason you'll find them everywhere. I'm very sceptical these days about 'local' starters. I have over 20 some from Tasmania to Alaska, they all need pretty much the same kind of treatment. A chicken needs chicken food be it a Rhode Island Red or a Bantam within limits. If you don't feed your chickens enough you'll get skinny chickens, you've still got your chickens but they aren't doing so well as the guys next door that feeds them well. Even if you do have more than he does and they make more noise. It really doesn't make any difference whether you feed you starter 1:1:1 or 1:10:10 as far as your flour bill goes but your starter will thank you for it and you won't be in the situation where you need to spike your dough because it didn't do what you expected. If you're happy with 1:1:1 feeding and your starter is doing what you want then great. I don't know what else you do with your starter. It's a bit like what you said "I'm going by the rule of thumb that if the starter at least rises to triple within 6-10 hrs of last feeding, it's active enough to raise a large loaf"
Without qualifying that statement it's meaningless. Sorry I don't mean to be rude but if I feed my 1g of starter 1000g of flour and same water by that maxim my starter isn't 'active'. When isn't' it active? It isn't active at the start or the finish? There's nothing wrong with feeding this amount but it will take  ± 11 hours  to double depending on the temp. Is it not active when it's tripled if that takes 15 hours? You have to be careful with rules of thumb. I've seen way too many people come unstuck by adhering to them. 

A starter is active when it has the maximum number of organisms ready to do the job. You can't tell this by looking if you don't have any experience. If your starter is smelling of by-products it isn't active it's over run with it's own pooh and needs a good clean and feed, that is, if you want a reliable starter rather than one that is just there for flavouring as some do and that's totally fine, if that's what they expect.  
Jim

Srishti's picture
Srishti

I don't get it..... I am sorry, I am an absolute novice!!!

I have a starter on day 3 of SourdoLady's recipe. I don't remember seeing anywhere about feeding it 1:10:10 or even1:6:6. Seems like she just doubles it?

But if you do feed it that much when do you do it?

etc etc etc....

My head is so jumbled up right now that I don't know what to ask?

Thanks a lot all of you

Srishti

demegrad's picture
demegrad

There is no real reason to follow a recipe when making a starter, but if you feel most comfrontable with following a recipe go for it. Remember though that people have been leavening dough with wild yeast for thousands of years at least, it's going work. I personally keep one starter around which is at 100% hydration and I measure by weight. For me, I do this just because it makes things simple, that doesn't mean you have to follow my method, for instance if you don't have a kitchen scale to measure by weight. Keeping things simple, just feed your starter with equal parts of water and flour by volume, this will give you a hydration (by weight) of around 150-165%. This will work fine for making bread and I know some people who use this type of starter exclusively and make wonder breads. This link gave me the confidence to go and make a starter

<a href="http://www.thefreshloaf.com/http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm/">link</a>. Now about your question, I think the 1:6:6 type feeding is for when you are planning to make bread and not just to maintain. So if your just maintaining the starter or feeding it, like you said, just use 1:1:1 and double the weight of the starter. BUT if you are now making bread use 1 part starter to 6 parts water and 6 parts flour to make the pre-ferment for the bread. This sort of ratio is favored by people who like using very very little amount of starter to make bread which allows for very long rises at room temperature which gives enough time to develop more flavor from the wheat resulting in wonderful bread. I personally love this method, but if I want bread today I've had a lot of success just using a lot of starter mixing with flour and water to make dough and rises in less time but still wonderful bread. I hope this helps, if not just ask what is confusing and hopefully we all can help you out. Sourdough baking is a really a wonderful thing and should be shared and done as much as possible.

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

Jeffrey's picture
Jeffrey

Srishti,

 

It's really not much to worry about, there's probably as many ways to start a starter as there are people that do it.  Sourdoughlady's recipe is pretty good.  So is Floydm's, he did the raisin water thing.  I put the whole raisins in, then everyone thought i made raisin bread.  The raisins as rye are good sources of yeast, which is all that really matters.  Though some say that the yeast is a little different,  i just started a test today, one starter, only being fed oj and rye, the other bread flour, oj, and raisins.   Not a real good test since there's only one of each.  We'll see what happens. 

 

What you're trying to do, is give the yeast, plenty of water, food, and a safe environment to grow in.  This it will do.  At first, it seems to start out slow, that's because there's not very many in there.  As they sit around eating and drinking they multiply quickly, and just keep eating and drinking, and multiplying.  So now and then you have to feed them.

 

At this stage you really don't need to worry, just follow the recipe you're using, and have patience, sometimes it takes a while.

 

hope this helps

 

jeffrey

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

Srishti, what demegrad said is right. My advice is really aimed at those that are feeding their starter to make bread with. If you are making a new starter then  1:1:1 is better because it won't need so much food. This really is very rough guides. Pretty much anything goes but you have to give some instructions. The wiggle room is quite considerable. Later when you are planing a certain look and taste you'll be able to judge the right amount of this and that to get it. For something that is jut four ingredients there's a lot you can do with it. 

Jim

demegrad's picture
demegrad

Jim, you have quickly become one of my favorite bloggers on this site.  Your general feelings of how to make sourdough breads are quite on par with my own.  I haven't mastered your method of the french fold yet though.  I can do it but it just doesn't seem to build good gluten development nearly as quickly as you seem to be able to.  From what I can tell from your blogs is that I'm not as hard line sourdough starter as you are, but I definitely try go soully sourdough leavened as much as I can, especially for doughs that are not flavored with other stuff.  I like making the flavored breads to though like cinnamon and raisin and stuff like that.  I just finished the Pane Siciliano from BBA, the only change I made from the recipe is that I didn't use any commerical yeast and made the pate fermentee from my sourdough starter.  It's beautiful.  I have to wait for it to cool though before digging in.  I was thinking though, this is the first time I've seen the 1:1:1 way of writing a feeding schedule.  I guess a 1:1:1 would actually triple the weight of the starter where initially I wrote it would double the weight.  Was I correct though, the first number indicates the parts of starter and the next two numbers are the parts of flour and water respectively?  or maybe is it water then flour?

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

Srishti's picture
Srishti

I would think it would triple it if the ratio was in weight of starter:flour:water. Not when you do it in cups though!

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng

That's very kind of you to say so. I usually get abuse rather than praise for not mincing my words. Oh well. : -) I can mince if I have too. lol. And I never take it seriously. We all do things differently and a little healthy debate doesnt do anyone any harm as long as it doesn't get personal. I don't like that. 1:1:1 is something we used to use in maths. The ':' is 'to'. It does triple the weight as you say but it really isn't that important. As you've seen for feeding I don't think it's really enough for a 12 hour feed in the long term but I did this the other night just to see what would happen and it's was still going strong in the morning. So for the short term at least out on the counter it's fine. For me when I say 1:1:1 in my mind I'm thinking starter, flour, water. But when you're talking 100% you don't need to explain that.
Don't forget the French Fold in the video was done after a long rest. If you do it straight after mixing it doesn't look like it does in the video but then after an hour or so rest you'll only be able to do about two folds. It doesn't look like you're doing much but you are. I do use natural leaven all the time with only the occasional dip into the yeast bag. I just find it easier. I'm used to it now and it comes naturally to me. Pardon the pun. Plus I can spread the work over two days. I suppose you can do the same with com yeast but I've never done that.
Jim

Srishti's picture
Srishti

Thanks so much all of you ... I feel better  :)

A few more questions..

I am on day 4 of my starter.. Do I keep the lid of the jar tightly closed or should I just cover it with cloth and let it breathe?

Second, is sourdough better for you? (Compared to the commercial yeast which instantly puffs up your bread?)

I know it is different kinds of yeast in the two, but is one better healthwise for you than the other?

Thanks a bunch

Srishti

demegrad's picture
demegrad

Yeast needs oxygen to live and grow but typically the amount of oxygen beaten into the starter when you mix it after feeding it with new flour and water is enough.  Many people use airtight lids to keep their starters in, why, I don't know, it's definitely not a requirement but if that's what you have and that's what you want to use that particular jar for, go for it, because I'm pretty sure it doesn't make any difference.  So don't worry about letting it "breathe" but you should beat in some air when you feed it.   In fact once you have a healthy starter going a lot of times instead of feeding it as you can usually just mix it up.  This beats in more air and reconnects the yeast with nutrients in the flour.  As far as what's healthier, I wouldn't say commercial yeast is unhealthy for you.  I mean it all dies in the oven anyway.  I can't really speak intelligently on this really, so I'll just defer this question to others.  Commercial yeast is a natural product it's particular strain just happens to be great for rising bread but no less natural.

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Actually, though yeasts prefer oxygen and reproduce much faster when oxygen is available, they can survive and reproduce anarobically as well. That's why some folks recommend stirring a starter a couple of times a day when you're trying to get it going. Whipping in some air will give it a boost. 
But even if you don't, it'll get along just fine without it. :-)

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng


I agree with you on that one. I think sourdough is healthier for you, even though any com yeast gets cooked in the oven. If you're baking with it then there's a pretty much certain chance you're going to ingest some raw or at least inhale it if it's the powdered variety. But I don't think it's anything to be unduly worried about. I was attacked quite strongly for suggesting sourdough was better for you than com yeast in another group by someone who claimed to be a doctor. So who knows. On the oxygen thing. Oxygen is needed for reproduction but not for fermentation. When things get really tough they can even eat the alcohol they've already made. That's a pretty clever trick. I'm told one of their genes got duplicated which allowed it then to go on and be used for eating alcohol and to switch between the two. Clever. A trick not adopted my many fungi or bacteria.
Jim

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

According to "The Bread Builders" book by Daniel Wing and Alan Scott, benefits of using "natural leaven" over commercial yeast are:

- better flavor

- better nutrition from the fermenting of whole grains, which produce B vitamins and biotin. Natural fermentation pre-digests bran to make more readily available the minerals and vitamins in the grains for absorption into the body

- better resistance of the bread to mold and bacterial spoilage without the need for preservatives

- better crumb structure

- richer crust color

From "The Bread Builders" p. 5.

demegrad's picture
demegrad

That does make perfect sense.  It's pretty amazing how the cheapest form of yeast happens to be the best in so many ways.

demegrad

http://www.demegrad.blogspot.com

Srishti's picture
Srishti

Thanks Mountaindog,

That is really interesting....

Thanks for digging that up. That reminded me of an Oriental Heath book I was reading a few months ago and it has a bread section along with all other kinds of foods.

Its a big fat White book called "HEALING WITH WHOLE FOODS"-Oriental Traditions and Modern Nutrition. By Paul Pitchford.

Here is some interesting read from it: (My comments in CAPS )

Some natural leavening agents are sourdough, miso, rejuvelac, fermented cooked grains, etc....

(COULD WE ADD MISO TO MAKE SOME KIND OF SOURDOUGH... INTERESTING THOUGHT)

According to some European researchers naturally leavened bread is superior to cultured yeasted breads. Yeasted bread is linked to stomach bloat, indigestion, thin blood and weak intestines; yeasted products seem uncannily to exacerbate conditions that occur with Candida yeast overgrowth symtoms, including many degenerative diseases.Thus various European and - more recently - certain American health clinics forbid their clients yeasted bread.

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Other benefits of naturally leavened breads:

-> The long proofing allows the fermenting agents to break down the cellulose structure and release nutrients in the dough improving its nutritional value.

-> Contains lactobacillus, which helps generate intestinal flora essential for proper digestion and elimination.

(HMMM..... LACTOBACILLUS WON'T BE ALIVE AFTER BAKING, BUT ACCO. TO CHINESE MEDICINE IT'S ALL ABOUT THE ENERGY OR THE CHEE.)

->The natural bacterial action and baking neutralizes nearly all of the Phytic acid which occurs in wheat and other grains. (Phytic acid reduces mineral metabolism-eapecially in those whose diet includes a good % of grains and legumes - and can contribute to anemia, nervous disorders and rickets.) About 90% of Phytic acid remains in yeasted breads.

-> It stays edible for weeks and is more delicious and nutritious in 5-10days, if stored in a cool and dry place.

SO, JUST WANTED TO PUT IN WHAT I KNEW ABOUT IT... THOUGH THOSE BEAUTIFUL BREADS LOOK SO GOOD ON THIS FORUM AND THE BOOKS i HAVE BEEN GEEKING WITH ALL DAY LONG THAT i STARTED A PATE FERMENTE FROM BBA FOR MAKING SOME BAUGETTES TOMORROW.....

i KNOW i CAN USE A STARTER FOR ANY CALL OF YEAST IN A RECIPE (IMPATIENTLY WAITING FOR MINE TO GET GOING... 4TH DAY NOT A SINGLE BUBBLE....wAITING WAITING GRRRRR...........)

QUESTION: CAN i ALSO USE WHOLE WHEAT IN ANY RECIPE CALLING FOR WHITE? i KNOW IT IS TOTALLY DIFFERENT TO WORK WITH... AND i CAN INCREASE WATER AND SORT OF GET IT SIMILAR CONSISTENCY... wOULD THAT WORK OK?

tHANKS A LOT

sRISHTI

jm_chng's picture
jm_chng


Hi srishti,White can be substituted no problem. You won't need so much water but that's easily remedies.
Jim