The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

090602 My First Sourdough Rye Bread - Water Roux Starter Method

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Yippee's picture
Yippee

090602 My First Sourdough Rye Bread - Water Roux Starter Method

 


This is my first baking project using rye flour.  It is a sourdough bread made with 20% rye flour, which was all used to make the water roux starter.  There are three objectives of this project:


 



  1. Practicing scoring techniques learned from David, in preparation for making his high hydration baguettes.

  2. Testing the vitality of my starter which was fed differently than before. This starter was immediately returned to the fridge after given  a 1:2:2 feeding.  I wanted to compare the activities of this starter to the ones that were refreshed several times.  

  3. Observing the effects of water roux starter in artisan breads.


 


I made three slashes, two according to David's instructions and the last one as a control and was done by the way that I'd been doing before.  The results were dramatically different.  The ones done following David's method were the pretty ones that I've always been envious of.


 


My starters performed similarly even though they were fed differently.  By adopting the 'immediately back to the fridge' methodology, I will be relieved of the workload of feeding and minimizing waste of flours. 


 


This crumb was softer and less chewy compared to the boules I've made.  Breads made with water roux starter normally have a longer keeping time. However, this feature has become less important as I have frozen my breads as soon as they cool.


 


 http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569048@N05/sets/72157619157537516/


 



        Yippee's portion  Brands/Hydration      
    (%)   (g)        
B -  bread flour 80 = 160 King Arthur      
R -  rye flour 20 = 40 Whole Foods bulk      
SD -  starter 40 = 80 100%      
S -  salt 1.7 = 3.4 Kirkland sea salt      
W -  water 68 = 136        
                 
1 Dissolve S in W.            
2 Mix R in 1              
3 Heat up 2 either on stove (keep stirring) or in microwave (stir halfway) to 65C / 149F  
  COOL AT LEAST TO ROOM TEMPERATURE before use      
4 Mix 3, B and SD until just incorporated        
5 Autolyze 20 minutes            
6 S&F 4-6 times, round up every time        
7 Dough in fridge overnight          
8 Dough out of fridge            
  S&F 4-6 times, round up every time, last 2 times shaped into a bartard      
9 Final proof on canvas            
  Yippee went to sleep and left the dough out in a warm kitchen for 5 hours    
10 Preheat oven to 550F            
  Slash, steam            
  Lower oven temperature to 500 for the first 20 minutes
  460 for the last 10 minutes          
  Leave loaf in the turned off oven for 10 more minutes with door ajar      

 

Comments

Susan's picture
Susan

Congratulations!


Susan from San Diego

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Susan:


I owe it to you.  You gave me the most precious first lesson in sourdough.  Thank you!


Yippee

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

It looks delicious.


David

Yippee's picture
Yippee

David.

Aprea's picture
Aprea

Thank you and congratulations.  I have been on a quest to find a perfect sourdough rye recipe that looks like the loaf you posted - are you saying if I use my regular sourdough recipe and sup 20% of the flour to rye - that it will look like this?


 


If not, could you share your recipe?  Do you actually taste the rye?

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I'll defer your question about supping rye flour in your regular sourdough recipe to the more experienced sourdough masters in this community.  I'm not in the best position to give you an answer since my sourdough experience is very, very limited.


However, I'm more than happy to share my formula with you.  I'll post it shortly. 


My bread had a 'sweet' taste as if there were sugar in the dough, which David had mentioned about his baguettes.  I was quite surprised that my bread had a similar tone of taste. 


Yippee

Yippee's picture
Yippee

The formula is up.  Enjoy!


Yippee

althetrainer's picture
althetrainer

Yippee, they look beautiful!  I can't wait to see your recipe to find out how you re-calculated the liquid-flour ratio after the water roux starter.  This will make my attempt at making SD-water roux starter WW sandwich loaf a lot easier. 


Bixmeister's picture
Bixmeister

Nice looking rye bread


I like rye bread.  I have been stuck on Italian lately but, will attempt rye bread some time later.


Bix

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Bixmeister.

Aprea's picture
Aprea

I will try this recipe this weekend -  I love your format for writing recipes too.  Thank you for all your thoughts.  Keep us posted with future conquests...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

You've given me some ideas to take off on.  Do you think that heating the rye flour has a similar effect as sour does on rye?   That is, controling the rye amylases?  I was just reading (Hamelman's Bread p 47) that Not until they reach 176°F would heat destroy them.  By heating them only to the gelatin stage, the amylases would be fully activated and a great deal of risk is added.  (Could be the reason behind the Northern European rye recipes asking for boiling water added to rye... interesting.)     


I'm going to adapt some rye theory;



  • either heat the water higher in step 3  to 176°F or more

  • or change step 4 to:  mix the rye roux with the sourdough starter to sour for a few hours (2-4) before adding bread flour


What do you think?


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee


heating the rye flour has a similar effect as sour does on rye?   That is, controling the rye amylases?



 


Mini:


I have been thinking about the same thing!!!!! and I experimented it with using all the 10% rye in David's SJSD to make the water roux starter.  We'll soon find out how it is when I take this dough out of hibernation (you know, my usual days or weeks of retardation in the fridge).


The reason that prompted me to try this was because, even though at a lower % of rye flour than my 090602 rye bread , the dough in my first trial of David's formula turned out to be much messier and the crumb was very gummy.  I used KA organic AP flour and no rye roux.  The combination of a lower gluten flour (AP) and the presence of lively amylases, I believe, was the culprit. 


In this trial, I switched to bread flour and rye roux, which were the ingredients for my 090602 rye bread.  For a better control next time, I will only alter one element by changing the rye to rye roux and keep the AP flour. 


I didn't measure the temperature of my rye roux but it was hot cos it was bubbly when I took it out of the microwave. I hope it was hot enough to destroy the amylase.  


Mini, I appreciate your thoughts.  You feel like my labmate to me in high school.  I will surely share my results with you.


 


Yippee


 


 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

My second SJSD turned out okay but I was somewhat disappointed.  The oven spring was not that great, but the gumminess was definitely gone. I'll revisit the formula in the near future.  Also, I'll modify my rye brick bread formula to include a roux starter and different % of hydration and give it another try.  Thank you very much for your information on rye bread.


Yippee  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm sorry, I edited the q and erased it.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

even though your question is gone. 


1. Water heated up to 90C/194F, mixed with rye flour until gelatinized, temperature down to 168F, so I guess it's not hot enough to denature the amylase


2. Rye roux - heating up rye and water mixture till 194F, stays at 194F


Texture in 1. is thinner, as more water is absorbed/evaporated in 2., I suppose.


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Mini:


If I do it again today, I would definitely measure and compare the temperature.  When I did it then (it's almost been 9 months), I wasn't that precise. 


Today I was thinking about Lepard's 100% rye formula, which suggested trying 2 different temperatures.  From your experience, did you find that temperatures would alter the flavor?  Does it matter which method to use as long as I maintain a constant temperature?


Yippee

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'm not quite sure if it has any difference.  The file about scalding flour that Hans put up has me more confused than ever.  But it deals with wheat bread and scalding for lengthening shelf life.  Scalding any more than 6% is a waste of time.  Also using more flour decreased gluten and thus rise in the overall formula.  Right... if no adjustments have been made in the formula for the decrease in gluten.  I never measured the temps myself (in a water roux, flour that boiling water was added to, or microwave roux)  but I bet they were different. If that makes a big difference in flavor, I don't know.  They would all sweeten the dough.  I suppose after tasting the bread, one could decide to add honey or sweetner if desired.  I prefer not to.  I still like the sour & rye as opposed to roux & rye although they are both tasty. 


Two different temps...Lepard's 100% rye... what temps do you mean?  I don't have the recipe in front of me.


Mini

Yippee's picture
Yippee

respectively.


 


Yippee