The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

San Joaquin Sourdough: another variation

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

San Joaquin Sourdough: another variation

I have continued to play with my formula for what I call "San Joaquin Soudough." This continuing series of experiments started with my curiosity as to whether the baguette formula of Anis Bouabsa could be applied to other types of bread than baguettes. The short answer is, of course, "yes."


The basic approach I have been using is described in detail in the following blog entry:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/8454/pain-de-campagne 


The present variation used 10% KAF White Whole Wheat flour, 90% KAF Bread flour and a slightly higher hydration - 76%. The techniques for mixing, fermentation, etc. were as I have described before. So, the ingredients were:


Ripe 65% hydration sourdough starter....100 gms


Water........................................................380 gms


KAF Bread Flour.........................................450 gms


KAF White Whole Wheat Flour...................50 gms


Sea Salt.........................................................10 gms


Instant Yeast................................................1/4 tsp




The combined effect of the different flours and the higher hydration was to yield a dramatically different bread with a much more open crumb structure - really ciabatta-like.


Now, I did bake these loaves under an aluminum foil roasting pan for the first 12 minutes and then for another 18 minutes uncovered. The oven spring was massive. My scoring was obliterated. Examination of the crust coloration of the bloom revealed that the bloom occurred very early in the bake and very rapidly. (The coloration was even and not different from the rest of the crust. See my Scoring Tutorial in the TFL Handbook for further explanation.)


With the higher hydration and covered baking, the crust softened quickly during cooling. The crumb was like a good ciabatta - very tender yet still chewy. The taste is very mildly sour, even on the day after baking. It made a delicious sandwich with Toscano salami, Beaver Brand Sweet Hot mustard and lettuce. (Sorry, Mini. It definitely would drip mayonnaise in your lap.)


This bread presented me with a number of surprises, but I'm far from disappointed. I'm happy to have a "new" bread in my repertoire. 


David

Comments

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Almost looks like there is malt in that dough, we love our dark crusts here, looks great as usual, David, what a crumb! (lettuce does a good job of keeping the sandwich fixings from falling through the holes, too...:-)  )

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I totally forgot that I did add about 2 tsp of non-diastatic malt to the dough!


I am totally in awe of your perspicacity!


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

Talk about holes, holey moley!!! You have found the holey grail of holes with your most dramatic experiment.


I can't wait to try it for myself!


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

If you do make it, be sure to post a review with photos!


David

xaipete's picture
xaipete

And I will post photos! Happy holidays!


--Pamela

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

David,


Ok.  You made me hungry with the sandwich discription.  The first picture reminds me of some seven pound potatoes that were grown to demonstrate South American Incan terrace growing techniques some time ago. They knew what they were doing as it turns out so do you! Nice, massive spring with baked potato crust.  This is a definite haf'ta try. . . ,


+Wild-Yeast

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

It looks awesome. I can't believe you made a sandwich!! I want to see a picture of the front of your shirt after that one!


Betty

Susan's picture
Susan

You've outdone yourself yet again!


Susan from San Diego

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

And, amazingly, no drips.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

That's what the big holes are for...slice it sides ways and it supports all those delicious sauces...Oh yumm...the Italians then wrap em up real tight and place a brick on top and let the sandwich sit until all the flavors are soaked in and blended...pack it on a lunch in the vineyard and bring a bottle of your good wine, David!


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sylvia.


It sounds like a recipe you need to share. What kinds of sauces?


We have chicken fricassee made for dinner tomorrow. It has a lovely sauce for soaking up with bread, but it's not exactly a picnic food.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

 Hi David, Well what I like is just not really a sauce...but  extra virgin olive oil and Balsamic vinegar...maybe your sauce...I call it sauce..secret sauce..mayo...mustard!!  Yumm chicken fricassee sounds wonderful...no it's not a picinic food.  Sounds like a lovely Dinner.  Save some of that loaf for sandwiches later!


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Olive oil and balsamic vinegar: My wife prefers that to any other way of eating my sourdough breads, at least at dinner.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

It's a family favorite...the grandkids love it..a little of each poured into a saucer with or without some salt and pepper! 


Sylvia

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I hear you!  We like a nice green/red/brown pumpkin oil.   Same serving suggestions.  Sometimes a mild onion sliced thin and drizzled with oil too! 


Lovely loaves, David!   You're right, let us not forget about mayo dripping!  The holes are my favorite part!   I use the lettuce trick too!  Olives can fill up the smaller cavities, while whole  cherry tomatoes add an explosive epicurean risk factor to any tame looking sandwich.   


Not to go off on a tangent, but can one actually cut a bubble diagonally?  Bread, I do it all the time -- just for the aesthetics -- diagonal cutting looks and tastes better,  but a bubble? 


Mini

Wild-Yeast's picture
Wild-Yeast

Extra virgin light olive oil aioli with a splash of balsamic was something that subliminally surfaced with your description of the sandwich.


+Wild-Yeast

xaipete's picture
xaipete


With the higher hydration and covered baking, the crust softened quickly during cooling.



Just a thought, David, about your soft crust. I've been leaving my high hydration, cloched breads in a turned off oven for 5 to 10 minutes after baking, which seems to generate a harder crust for me.


--Pamela

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

The crust was really hard when it came out of the oven after sitting there with the oven open and off for 10 minutes.


In this case, I accept the softened crust as expectable with the type of bread this turned out to be.


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Hi David,


My crusts for high hydration doughs are always the same. Nice and crunchy when they come out of the oven and then they soften up pretty quickly. I really couldn't care less.


Just out of curiosity, what would you say the main difference in taste is between your recipe and the Nury's light rye? Which do you like better?


Your bread looks fabulous and I'll definitely give it a go!


Jane

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder


Just out of curiosity, what would you say the main difference in taste is between your recipe and the Nury's light rye? Which do you like better?



I was asking myself the very same questions when these loaves came out of the oven! They sure look a lot like the Nury Light Rye, don't they?


My conclusion is that they are certainly siblings, but not identical twins. This batch did not have rye flour. I substituted white whole wheat. I have always mixed the Nury rye in my KitchenAid. The Bouabsa baguettes and their "children," like my San Joaquin Sourdough, are stretched and folded in the mixing bowl by hand.


I happen to think the SJ SD is wonderful, but, honestly, I haven't been bowled over by the flavor as I have with the Nury Rye. (It takes a lot to surprise me these days, and the Nury Rye still has what it takes.) I need to sit down with the formulas and meditate on the source of Nury's special magic.


Certainly, one difference is the rye flour. At 10%, I think it's effect is mostly to increase the sourness of the bread and then a subtle flavor "overtone." But I've made the SJ SD with 10% rye generally, and it's still not quite as good as Nury's Rye. Hmmm ... Maybe I should try making Nury's Rye at a lower hydration and see how it comes out.


BTW, did you see the photo of Pierre Nury I posted on another topic? Just in case you missed it:



David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

You know what's funny? When I mentioned Pierre Nury to Anis, he looked at me as if to say, "DON'T talk about him!"  I can't remember what he said exactly but it had to do with the general outlook on the baking world (old world versus new).


Rye changes everything in my opinion. I made a pretty high hydration bread today, no recipe, just a usual type thing and I only put about 40-50g of whole rye for 615 g of flour. It changes everything! The bread is a little darker than a straight T65 and the aroma is incredible. But actually, since the T65 is not really "white", it comes out to be sort of like the Nury's in that if I remember correctly, he adds some WW in the leaven. In his recipe, with the high hydration, small amount of levain and the all night bulk fermentation, it adds up to perfection!


I guess we'd have to do a parallel comparison... what a pain!


Jane


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.


The reason I have been playing with white whole wheat in various recipes is because I've read that French flour uses white wheat while most American flour uses red wheat.


Thinking about the comparison of French and American flours' flavor you and SteveB did, I wondered if adding white whole wheat to AP or Bread flour might come closer to T65 than using Red Whole Wheat flour or a high extraction flour made from red wheat.


So far, I've been pleased with the results. White whole wheat has a mellower, sweeter, less bitter flavor than red whole wheat, and the flavor seems to blend in better.


I think the best flavor I've achieved so far with the SJ SD was when I added 5% WW and 5% whole rye flours and used KAF's European Artisan Flour, which is supposed to be their T65 clone. I need to use that mix again, but using white whole wheat. Hmmmm .... I better feed my starter!


David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Jane.


Anis' reaction to your mentioning Nury is interesting.


In the reporting of this year's "Best Baguette in Paris" competition, there was apparently some hard feelings between the younger boulangers and the old guard. I didn't really understand the substance of the disagreement, but Anis was quoted as speaking for the new generation.


Do you know what it's all about?


David

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I read the article and the gist of it was that the older ones said that the new, modern methods of baguette making were "sacriligeous" while Anis said that envolution in processes is natural and he bakes for the CLIENT'S tastes, not the "institution". And I heartily agree with him.


So if you do your mix with the white whole wheat and up the hydration as you did this time, I think you'll obtain bread perfection!!! Let us know.


Jane

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Hi David, I just wanted to mention something I noticed when moving from an extremely dry, arid climate...which I spent most of my life...to a humid/moist air California climate...I was amazed how things molded, salt clumps and some things are never were crispy for long!  Even where Im located...inland..they call it dry!  Not to me.  One thing you can never get in this climate is a decent glazed donut...yes a glazed donut tells it all...in the desert you always have a lovely thin crisp sugar glaze..not where you have anykind of moisture in the air...here the glaze turns to a wet soggy topping in no time.  Im saying this just because I think the climate...not just the way bread is baked is going to make a big difference in the crust.  The desert makes for a great crust on breads, big hair on women "this is a woman's hairdo saying" and great glazed donuts!  I think no matter how you try to dry out the crust so it has that crunch..it's not going to last..unless you live in the desert!  Just my observation I thought you might be interested!


Sylvia

Moriah's picture
Moriah

slashes be so wonderfully obliterated! As far as dipping,  our family likes olive oil and zatar - it's delicious -- who needs butter?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Za'atar