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Pat's baguettes with a difference

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Pat's baguettes with a difference

Last week, I made baguettes using Pat's (proth5) recipe. They were good. I was amazed at the open crumb I got from a 65% hydration dough. See my blog entry:


http://tfl.thefreshloaf.com/node/10852/baguette-crumb-65-hydration-dough


Today, I made them again, but included an overnight cold retardation during bulk fermentation. The dough was mixed last night and refrigerated. It expanded little, if at all, overnight. I decided to let it double before dividing and shaping. After 6 hours at room temperature, it had only expanded by 50%, although I could see lots of little bubbles through the glass of the 2 quart measuring cup in which I was fermenting the dough. So, I decided to go ahead and divide it. I preshaped and let the pieces rest for 15 minutes, then shaped the baguettes and proofed them for about 70 minutes. Scored, loaded and baked at 460F.


Being a sourdough kind of guy, I found the increased sourness more to my liking than the batch I had not cold retarded. The crumb was a bit less open, no doubt due to the less complete dough expansion during bulk fermentation. I will try this again but do the cold retardation of the formed loaves next time.




David

Comments

Janedo's picture
Janedo

I saw your other ones (Pat's) the other day, but have been SO busy, I didn't say anything. I'm doing some today with the flour from a baker (a BAD flour) with the Anis recipe but with 65% hydration.


But, what I wanted to tell you, was that I had long discussions with two bakers the other day that both said with pure PRIDE "I make bread the old-fashioned direct method way! It makes the best bread!". WOW! I can't believe they really think that. One of those baker's I have a meeting with next week and I will get him to explain more because he is retired and was president of the Baker's Association. He taught the MOF baker we have here in the area. So, he knows what he is talking about.


But I have always had such great success with retarded doughs. Here it is seen as something used to control timing and not recognised as a taste enhancer.


Funny, huh?


Nice baguettes, but the way! :-) I WILL try Proth's recips soon!


Jane

proth5's picture
proth5

Kind of like the reaction I got from "my teacher" when I mentioned the retarded fermentation method for baguettes.  I think that everyone takes pride in their own method.


Of course, we will soon have a new selection for the "Best Baguette in Paris" and we must find out how that is done!


Now I'm on the quest to do a good baguette with my home milled flour.  Not so easy...


Happy Baking!


Pat

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Jane.


What is "traditional" or "old-fashioned" is a matter of your age, or at least your time perspective. In historical perspective, as you appreciate, yeasted bread of any kind is new-fangled. And baguettes were first introduced only about 100 years ago, as I understand it.


But fashion does go in cycles, and now, I guess, pain au levain must be "the latest fad."


Hmmm ... What's next? I can hear them talking in the (American) grocery store ...


  "Do you know what they are selling in that bakery? Un-sliced bread!"


  "Imagine that! What will they think of next?"


David

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

David - absolutely beautifully shaped and scored baguettes, as usual for you! I found your results intriguing when cold retarding the bulk ferment vs the final proofing of loaves, as I seemed to have a similar result of less open crumb when bulk fermenting cold and final proofing warm, vs the other way around. I look forward to seeing your results if you try the reverse with this recipe.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, MD.


Thanks for your kind words.


Reinhart - in BBA, I think - cautions against retarding during bulk fermentation. He claims the dough will not have enough "oomph" to rise. My loaves rose just fine. The unformed dough didn't though. The doughs I have made with instant yeast have risen in the refrigerator, but this was a pure levain.


I'm looking forward to my next experiment too.


David

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

and you continue to delight the eye. c

proth5's picture
proth5

For various reasons, I don't do any retarting on my baguettes - and probably never will.


I have used a pure levain for bagels, however, and have always encountered just a little trouble with them after retarding. I really think that refrigerator temperatures are too cold for a levain dough. The wild yeast seems to be more sluggish than commercial.


I wonder if they would fare better in an environment just a little warmer than our normal refrigerator temperatures.  I don't know if you've gone so far as to get a second small refrigerator or if you could rig up a cooler to stay at say - 50F.  I really think that would give better results.


But they are lovely...

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Pat,


FWIW, I did just that myself a couple of weeks ago. We have a newish smaller frig in our basement (was being used as an in-law flat sporadically so has a small kitchen - the basement not the frig :-)). I set this frig to the highest temperature setting it will allow without shutting itself off, and according to the thermometer I keep in there, it is ranging between 46-50F, never lower, never higher. I now keep all my whole grains in there, as well as my storage starters for 4 days per week when not feeding them daily at room temp. I retarded several shaped sourdough loaves in there with very good success, however, for me the absolute best temperature for retarding all day I am finding is around 58-62F which is close to the ambient temp. in my basement these days. At that temp., the levain activity is slowed enough that I can let a bucket of dough bulk ferment overnight or all day when I'm at work without it getting overproofed, same for shaped loaves but for a slightly shorter spell. Then again, I seem to have a slow but strong starter. Once summer arrives, my basement will be too warm to do that and I'll probably use the 50F frig a lot more to retard.


It has been my experience (with my starter anyhow) that at 40-42F, typical refrigerator temps are too cold to be able to bulk ferment sourdough very well, whereas commercially yeasted dough has no problem rising at those temps for me. Everyone else's starters may give them a very different result, however.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I enjoy assertively sour sourdough breads, so I frequently retard my loaves. The Gosselin and Bouabsa baguettes and the Nury Light Rye get retarded in bulk.


I was less than delighted with the results of this effort because of the poor dough rising, but the flavor was improved, to my taste, and my wife loved them.


I'll continue to tweak, as is my habit.


I agree that it would be nice to have a 50 degree environment, but I'm not ready to buy an appliance just for retarding bread. 


David

proth5's picture
proth5

Have fun!  Took me awhile to get them to my taste.  I'm not a big fan of the real sour breads, so naturally I'm happy with the mild flavor.


I wonder if a couple blocks of blue ice in a cooler would provide the right environment without the appliance purchase.  A thought.  I really think the fridge takes it out of our poor sourdough.


Added by edit:  You know, I was giving this some more thought and your results so perfectly illustrate the principle that the open crumb is a product of proper fermentation, that I just had to say it.  Since you are in the evaluating and tweaking stage it's worth thinking through.  In the process of the very cold retard you hampered the fermentation process.  The process didn't go too well and the crumb suffered.  I love it when things come together like that.


Not that it suffered too much, because those are still nice loaves, but worth thinking about...


Happy Baking!


 

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Pat.


I'm pretty sure what you said about impaired bulk fermentation is true.


Imagine that! Sometimes things we're taught turn out to be so.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Hi David, Your loaves are always so beautiful!  I guess Im not alone....  It is always on my mind about getting a refrigerator for the garage weighing the pros and cons!!....I would love to be able to shape my loaves before retarding overnite...but we have a fairly small frig and usually not enough room for the loaves.... Maybe someday when there is more room in the garage.  Also, I could certainly use the extra freezer space ..for now though I will just settle for a little less rise in my loaves!  I have been wanting to make some really sour bread bowls...my grandkids love my chili and like it served in sourdough bread bowls...the extra sour flavor you got sounds wonderful perfect!


Sylvia 

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

David, Please take a look at my SD Australian Wheat Loaf!  It was bulk fermented the same nite as the my 'Basic Italian/Different Loaf " now Im wondering about the results if this would have been shaped and then given it's overniter!  Do you think the problem with the SDAW loaf is it not having the proper rise/shape because I did a bulk ferment and did not use a shaped ferment as directed in the instructions??  It made a great quick breakfast the next morning "the day I lost"  went fishing : ) for Grandson's 12th!  This is a very nice bread and I got the recipe from NWSourdough sites special recipes.  I made half the recipe and it's approximately half organic KAWW flour and half KABF. there is powdered milk in this recipe.


I really would like to put off getting the extra frig!! : )


Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sylvia.


Your SDAW loaf looked good to me. I'm not altogether clear regarding the issues surrounding cold retardation timing. For me, retardation in bulk has worked best with doughs that have added yeast. Maybe it's not a good idea with pure sourdoughs.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

The loaf she has pictured on NWSD has been shaped and retarded overnite...with nice looking results...so maybe...it's does work with sourdough?  Just not sure on this and Im trusting her experience with sourdough.  I have read that letting the wheat soak helps soften it and that also helps in a better crumb...but if you notice in the picture of the loaf where it has risen there is some breaking of the crust...this was visable when the dough had risen before baking...this appeared to me that the wheat bran was tearing the gluten?  Causing the loaf not to rise properly...Teresa's loaf had a rounder dome shaped top with a smooth looking crust....huh!  I wanted to stay with her formula but maybe I should have increased the BFlour?  There's a lot of WW in her recipe...which I liked.  I know it makes for a denser loaf...I think I came close but not as nice a loaf as it should be.  Also hopeing a formed/shaped loaf with an overnite retarding might open up the crumb!


Sylvia

Janedo's picture
Janedo

Professional bakeries have the "chambre de pousse contrôlée"  which is regulated at cooler, but not cold temperatures (10-12°C) and then timed to go up to higher temps for quicker rises. In fact, they can set them to any temp in order to control production. But Anis told me that his baguette dough is left at 5°C which is our fridge temp, then he takes it out and leaves it at room temperature to rest.


My sourdoughs always continue to rise in the fridge and I haven't had problems with that. It takes a long time for the actual dough temperature to get really low and then outside of the fridge, the activity continues as their temperature rises. I would like to try what Mountaindog has, though. I have a fridge downstairs that I just cleaned out and am planning to use for that sort of thing.


Jane

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Thanks for sharing all your tweaks, David.  I plan to try Pat's baguettes later this week - providing I can find some organic AP flour here in the boonies.  I've been using GM unbleached AP and while it's okay for cookies and such, I'm not impressed with the results in bread.  I guess I could bite the bullet and cough up six bucks for KA AP, but would prefer to try organic first.


I hope you post your results with retarding the formed loaves, as that is the technique I prefer for taste and time management.  The thermometer on the bottom shelf of my refrigerator reads 42F and I've gotten good results with the Hamelman SD.  With spring approaching, I might try stashing the loaves in the garage overnight to see if a warmer temp makes any major difference.


 

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

So now Im thinking buying a wine refrigerator would be nice! They have temperature controls...'55F'being good for wine/a little lower for fermenting...can be set lower or higher..humidity control...they are fairly cheap, come in sizes and attractive to use in any room! Come in all different sizes...a plus with storing some wine! I would like to know what you think??
Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

For storing wine a while back. My conclusion was "You get what you pay for." They did not appeal to me for my wine - I have about 50 cases racked in my walk-in pantry. But they might work well as a retarder. About $200, as I recall.


David

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

David, Thank you for your opinion.  Considering options...and not really wanting it to use for storing wine...I think best would be to get a refrigerator for the garage.  I could probably put it to good use even with just the two of us at home.  I can appreciate your wanting good storage for your wine collection sounds like you have a very nice one.... my son-in-law and daughter put a 1200 foot underground wine cellar in their new home...totally spoiled me for good wine.


Back to baking!  While checking my NWSD site I was referenced to SourdoughBill44 an Australian sourdough baker...He has some interesting pics and results from overnite cold ferments and how slashing effects the crumb!  If you would like to see.. http://www.northwestsourdough.com/links.html  Sourdough & Bill44.

Under techniques.

Sylvia

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sylvia.


I'd never read anything about how slashing affects the crumb. Very interesting. 


I have made both bâtards and boules from the same batch of dough several times, and the bâtards consistently have had a more open crumb. I've always attributed this to my less competent shaping of boules, but now I wonder.


David