I use different temperatures for different reasons in different situations. For culture preservation, I like to store my starter in the fridge. This is when I won't be feeding it and I just want to arrest its development as much as possible. I make sure the starter is healthy, active and vigorous first. Then I feed it and put it directly into the fridge. I don't let it sit out and grow for a time first, because I don't want it using up half its food supply right out of the starting gate---it could be in there a long time. That's for storage, or any time I just don't have time to fuss with it.

For maintenance, I ferment and refresh it at room temp---maybe once a day or three times a day, but I let it live its refreshment cycles on the counter to promote and balance the right organisms---only chilling it when I want to arrest it again. I avoid successive feedings at cold temps because that translates into multiple generations. The populations grow and multiply slowly, and at different related rates---some so slowly that they might be flushed out by successive feeding over time, and conditions may change so as to allow different species to dominate. Natural selection gets its impact through multiple generations. That's why, when I refrigerate, I don't feed until I can bring it back out and refresh for a few cycles at room temp again.

50F won't arrest the organisms as much as lower refrigerator temps, so it would not be my recommendation for storage, but it can be a useful temperature to use whenever you're trying to reduce the sour and create a milder starter, or just need to slow it down temporarily until you can get to it. Does that make sense? That said, I guess 4 days could be considered "temporary" if it is not warm enough for the starter to deplete itself in that time. I'm a big believer in trying different things to see first-hand what happens. And if you find that it works well, then there's your real answer :-)

I have been known to use cider vinegar to rescue a starter which has a continuing bout of the 'Leucs'.

Once you have yeast growing, you won't see the leucs again. They are transient and can't persist in a type I starter. FWIW, I don't recommend adding vinegar to sourdough starter, because it isn't good for yeast. And fostering yeast is really what this whole exercise is about, because without it, you don't have leavening.

I suspect that starters go through a mini-version of the '4 phase' process each time they are fed.

It's just the one time. Once yeast and sourdough LAB are established, they will keep marauders out. There is strength in numbers :-)

Eric, in theory, yes. For one thing you are leaving more acid and lactobacilli in the mix from refreshment to refreshment (concentration-wise), and if the feeding schedule remains the same, you should see more acid accumulate. But, if at the same time you increase the feeding frequency, you can also acheive the opposite effect.

The danger in aiming for low pH in the maintenance of your starter, is that you run the risk of losing your L. sf, because it is more sensitive to low pH than the other lactobacilli. Also you could lose leavening power both in reduced numbers of yeast and reduced vigor. It's a delicate balance :-) You may or may not find it a better alternative to work at increasing the sour in your pre-ferments, rather than in your "stock culture."

That said, Pamela (xaipete) started feeding her starter 1:1:1 once a day, using a blend of 75% bread and 25% ww flours. I think maybe that's what Leader was intending, but can't be at all sure. Maybe she will chime in here and give us a report on how it is performing now. I know it increased the sour for her, but we didn't know how its leavening power would hold up over time.

Thank you, Debra.  As Gavin mentioned, there is a lot of information out there about sourdough cultures, but precious little of it is evidence based.  Now, we just need to find a baking enthusiast who still has lots of money, and would like to fund all the experiments you can devise.

Dave

Thanks again, David and everyone. It's funny---when people ask me what I've been up to, they don't really want me to tell them. So I end up listening politely, while they blather on about how their kids are doing in school or sports, or career, or whatever phase of life they are currently in. But try to share your excitement over producing a perfect loaf, and no one understands just what a triumph it is. It's just bread. They all know that I bake, but my family and friends really have no clue that I have this whole other "secret life." Shhhh, don't tell ;-)

Exactly. It's that living element that makes it all so complex. Living things interact with each other and their environment in a dynamic way, rather than linear. And their biochemical reactions are controlled by feedback mechanisms. I often say "It's never that simple with living things." Maybe I will make that my tag line :-)

Yep, making sense of it all---that's my goal. When you understand the starter and what the signs mean, you can take your cues from it, and know what to do to get it to behave. Kind of like Cesar Millan with dogs; you can be a Starter Whisperer ;-)

And minutes, yes---activation is like flipping a switch from OFF to ON. As long as it is Off, nothing is going to happen. But once On, then they can germinate, start growing and utilizing sugars again. With yeast, that ON switch appears to be controlled by a pH thermostat. At least, that's what the evidence seems to point to.

David, good to see you again, and thank you :-)  The flavor changes are a bit beyond my scope, but I think this has more to do with chemical changes happening in the bread as it ages, rather than bio-chemical action of living organisms. All the sourdough critters are killed during the baking, but chemical and physical changes still occur which affect taste and texture. Maybe some of those changes enhance or magnify the tongue's ability to pick out the acid notes from among the other flavors. Any cereal chemists here who can shed some light?

Several years ago, a friend gave me a whole bunch of ripe peaches from a trip down south. To preserve them, I ended up mixing up several batches of pie filling, freezing in, and then popping them out of lined pie plates, and storing them as individual "pie-cicles," I call them. I also baked off a few pies right away, to adjust the sugar, spices and thickening. The fresh pies and the ones baked within a month or two after freezing all had a slight bitterness to them, that I would describe as a peach pit taste. But once they got past 3 months in the freezer, the bitterness disappeared, and the flavor kept improving with time. I wasn't the only one who noticed. I don't know if it was the freezing specifically that took away the bitterness, or just the slow aging with the other ingredients, and without threat of bacterial spoilage. But the veil of bitterness was lifted, and other flavors were enhanced.

I know that doesn't particularly answer your question, but it was evidence to me that some flavor changes happen or continue even in the freezer.

Thanks again Crumb Bum :-)  It's nice to know that it makes sense. Yes, and how could the first few days be about flavor if you don't even have sourdough organisms growing yet. The gassy bacteria are only there for a day or two, and so timing is critical if they are to be employed as leavening. I think this would be classified as a type 0, or "spontaneous" sourdough---idli batter being an example. (I've never had idli, but I would assume that it has a very unique flavor.) But if you keep feeding, these naturally disappear, so idli batter has to be started anew each time.

When you keep feeding, it transforms into a type I sourdough, which is the kind most people here are aiming for. Type I sourdough is a mixed culture of LAB (mainly lactobacilli) and wild yeasts. The more consistant you are in maintenance, the more likely you are to have just one or two of each dominating. The more hap-hazard you are with temperature and feeding, the more likely it will be more of a mixed bag because their environment keeps changing, favoring (or not favoring) various LAB at differnt times.

We understand intellectually that the organisms came from the flour to begin with, but we sometimes forget that they are still there, ever present, and always being added back with each feeding of our cultures. They just aren't all growing. If we have lost a disireable fraction, or we want to foster a different LAB population, we need only to make the sourdough environment friendly to that organism. So changing your maintenance routine may be all it takes to bring about a change in the character of your starter. Temperature, hydration, feeding rate and schedule, flour---these are all things that we can manipulate to change that environment. The challenge is in figuring out what changes to make, and having the patience to give it time to take effect. But you can often fix an existing starter faster than you can make a new one and get it to where you want it.

I realized my maintenence is making my starter "what" it is, not being old or tainted in some way.

Exactly. And it also means that it doesn't matter who's formula you used to create it. It isn't a Silverton starter, or a BBA or Hamelman starter, or even a Debra Wink starter. It's a Crumb Bum starter :-)  All the different formulae are just different roads (some bumpier than others) to get you to the same place. From there you can go any number of directions by how you maintain the starter and manipulate the dough.

Judy, that's so kind of you to say :-)

Crumb Bum, I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I needed some time to mull it over. Sort of figure out the question behind the questions, because I think the answer starts with fundamentals that hopefully can clear up some of the confusion around sourdough.

You told EHanner that instead of going 1:1:1 with his stock starter he might want to tweak his preferment instead.  You cited Lsan. and yeast could be weakened in such a low ph environ.

Please allow me to clarify---what I said was that he might not want to aim for sourness in his starter, because low pH could have a negative effect on the population dynamics. The 1:1:1 ratio is not really the issue, because time and temperature are an equally important part of the equation. You can create sour, or mild with a 1:1:1, or just about any ratio, depending on how often you refresh and at what temperature.

is the starter just a concentrated  "flavoring" (bacteria)  that has leavening power (yeast) that does not grow a whole lot after it is introduced to its new environ?

Flavoring isn't the bacteria---it's what the bacteria produce. So you won't get flavoring from them if you don't have the bacteria. But they don't have to be multiplying to be metabolizing sugars and producing flavor compounds. They just need to be present in sufficient number.

it seems like at each stage (pre and dough) your starter gets diluted by flour, water and time

Initially each stage may be diluted by flour and water, but time allows it to rebuild again.

if all of the yeast and flavoring bacteria take a certain environment and time (sometimes days)  how is this transfered to the pre and later the dough.  Are we to assume that both the yeast and bacteria grow in the new dough that is usually a different hydration and left 12 to 24 hours at most?

To get a broader understanding, let's step back and look at the different stages in terms of the bigger picture. That may help to put it in perspective. In my view, there are three stages to sourdough---the stock culture, the pre-ferment(s), and the final dough:

The stock culture (starter, chef, mother, seed, storage leaven---whatever you choose to call it) is for preserving, maintaining and propagating the organisms that give your breads their desired flavoring and leavening. While they produce substances as metabolic by-products that we consider flavorful, exploiting that is not the primary goal at this point. The object here is to keep desireable organisms alive, healthy, and in sufficient numbers to do what we call on them to do for our breads. So the goal should be to cultivate the right kind of environment to foster the desired organism profile. What is best for the organisms isn't always the same thing as what is best for dough. That's an important distinction.

The pre-ferment(s) (first build, second build, etc., levain, starter, sponge, pre-dough...) have two jobs. One is to continue to build a healthy population of organisms with enough collective power to raise and flavor the dough. The other is to start building flavor before the dough is mixed. Using a pre-ferment allows for more variation in the use of hydration, time and temperature as flavor building tools. It also serves to shorten the dough fermentations later, and allow more scheduling flexibility, because part of the flour is already fermented.

The final dough is really the last build or feeding of the sourdough, if you will. At this point, you inoculate the dough with the active cultures that you have cultivated, and infuse the fresh flour with flavor already developed in the pre-ferments. The hydration may be higher or lower, depending on the type of preferment, but there is also an addition of salt. Salt slows organisms, LAB more so than yeast. So do reduced hydration and retarding. Fermentation may be shorter, or slower at this point, depending on the temperature, so all these factors add up to create an environment where reproduction is limited. But whether they multiply or not, they continue consuming sugars and producing effects in the dough. At this point, the organisms are headed for the oven, so it's the end of the line for them, making leavening and final flavor development their main function.

Do you see how the objective shifts from propagation, to flavor and lift as the process proceeds toward completion? Again, what is best for the bread is not necessarily the same thing as what's best for the microorganisms. The fundamental difference that sets the stock culture apart from the other stages is "continuous refreshment." It's the continuous nature that allows natural selection to determine the evolution of the starter. The pre-ferment to dough stages are a relatively short dead-end spur off the continuous loop. The organisms are more fixed, because there won't be enough generations to lose them through natural selection. So we have a temporary opportunity to manipulate them into producing the effects we desire, even if it isn't ideal for them.

If this is the case you could let a starter go until the yeast were weakened but flavor was at its max and then add fresh vigorous starter to the dough at the right time and end up with the best of both worlds?  I have not heard of people doing this though.

This is a relatively common practice, but by adding bakers' yeast and fresh flour rather than more starter. I'm not sure how much of the flour you can pre-ferment and still produce good bread. Maybe someone else can comment on that, but I think the notion of "maximum flavor" is problematic. What do you mean by that? The sweet nuttiness unlocked from the flour, or do you mean as sour as you can get it? Not all flavors (and rheological effects) produced by very long fermentation are necessarily good ones. And there's more to flavor than lactic and acetic acids, so maybe it's best to think more in terms of balance and appropriateness. That again, gets back to the type of bread and personal preference.

You have ruined me

Nah. Just think of this as the kind of mental exercise that will keep your brain young. It has to be better than crossword puzzles ;-)

Yes that's it, and repeat on day 5, 6 and on, if need be, until you see signs that yeast are actively growing. The most obvious and reliable sign is expansion (but not before day 3---expansion before that is from bacterial growth). Whenever yeast are growing, either fermenting or respiring, they are producing carbon dioxide gas. So the starter will be expanding. If you don't see expansion between feedings, the yeast aren't growing yet. You may see tiny bubbles from heterofermentative LAB, but they don't produce any significant rise.

The other sign of yeast growth is the yeasty smell. Many microorganisms produce characteristic aromas, and yeast smells like... well, yeast. But, I find that many people confuse "yeasty" with "doughy" or "battery"---the smell of the flour. It will start to smell like bread dough or beer, rather than pancake batter or something that's just sour. But it won't take on a yeasty smell until it starts growing (and expanding). So, I know when people tell me they think it smells yeasty, but nothing's happening yet, that it's really just hopeful thinking ;-)

When yeast activate and start growing is the turning point in your starter. Before that the strategy is about getting them to activate, which is why it's important not to overfeed. The once-daily "doubling" keeps it adequately fed without raising the pH too much and setting back progress. After they activate, the strategy changes to getting the yeast and the starter healthy, balanced and vigorous enough to raise bread. So, once yeast are growing, it becomes more important not to underfeed.

The day 4 instruction is only for getting your starter to the point that the yeast are actively growing. Once they are, you will move on to a more intensive/different feeding routine---either following the maintenance procedure given in your favorite bread baking book, or on advice from sourdough experts here. I turn you loose at that point. I am not a bread-baking expert, so I defer to those who are :-)  There are many different opinions and preferences, and ultimately, you'll settle into your own style and routine.

You can start feeding your culture bigger or more frequent refreshments once the yeast are growing. For a lucky few, that will be as early as day 3, but on average, they start growing on day 4. And if it does, you can start increasing your refreshments the very next day. If not, repeat day 4 and re-evaluate. Keep doing that until it starts to expand and smell yeasty. Is it that you're unsure if you have yeast growing?

If you had some rise---more than 5%?---then you probably have enough yeast started to keep it going. If you've never worked with sourdough before, the waiting takes some getting used to. There is a much longer lag time than with yeasted pre-ferments because you have to give them time to reproduce, so it may take several hours to show any rise again. Give it a full 24 hours to see what happens next and don't get discouraged. You can stir it occasionally if you like. It's not necessary, but active yeast do love oxygen (dormant yeast couldn't care less). Make sure it has plenty of room to grow. For 4 oz of starter, you will need a 16-oz container to be safe.

If it doesn't rise in 24 hours let me know, and we'll adjust from there (probably just another day 4 feeding). If it does rise, let it rise until it peaks and begins to fall (or 24 hours, whichever comes first) before feeding again. Either way, let me know what happens. I'll be away from the computer for a while in the middle of the day, but I'll try to check in before 10:00 am Central time. I think it's going to be fine; and if not, it can be fixed :-)

Okay, well puke probably means no yeast yet, but there is acid present. Proteolysis won't keep this from rising, so no worries there. The extra feeding didn't help, but all is not lost. Tell me more about it up to this point---juice or water, flour, and at what temperature has it been growing for the most part?

Let this feeding go the full 24 hours, and I'll check back later this afternoon or evening. Gotta run

I had always assumed the yeast cells were somehow magically "there and ready to go"

I think we all did---'cause that's what cookbooks tell us.

My contact at Lallemand told me, "spores are not the only dormant form." He didn't elaborate, but he also didn't know in what form they are present in flour---spores (haploid), or some other diploid dormant form. I suspect spores, but I also don't know what prompts yeast to sporulate in the wild. I have gotten away from calling them spores, because technically speaking, I just don't know. Either way, they are desiccated and dormant. Non-sporing organisms also have the ability to go dormant, which allows them to survive in nature. The mechanisms of dormancy still aren't all that well understood.

Spore-forming bacteria such as Bacillus and Clostridium, form spores differently than yeast. they're not haploid, or part of a sexual reproductive cycle. The quote I pulled encompasses all spores in a general way, but it was because low pH is sited as a common activator that it caught my attention. That's the one thing that was consistant with the appearance of yeast in my studies. Whether it took 3 days or 3 weeks for the pH to drop, that's when yeast started to grow. And the one time I acidified the day one mix to 3.5 with citric acid, I had yeast growing on day 2.

There must be some genetic diversity in yeast, otherwise there wouldn't be so many different strains within each species. Coincidentally, someone on the BBGA email group referenced an article just this morning on genetic diversity in Saccharomyces cerevisiae which ties in nicely with your comments. I don't have access to the whole article, but the abstract provides a nice summary. Given your screen name, I thought you might enjoy it :-)

Bread, beer and wine: Saccharomyces cerevisiae diversity reflects human history
JEAN-LUC LEGRAS*, DIDIER MERDINOGLU*, JEAN-MARIE CORNUET† and FRANCIS KARST

ABSTRACT

Fermented beverages and foods have played a significant role in most societies worldwide for millennia. To better understand how the yeast species Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the main fermenting agent, evolved along this historical and expansion process, we analysed the genetic diversity among 651 strains from 56 different geographical origins, worldwide. Their genotyping at 12 microsatellite loci revealed 575 distinct genotypes organized in subgroups of yeast types, i.e. bread, beer, wine, sake. Some of these groups presented unexpected relatedness: Bread strains displayed a combination of alleles intermediate between beer and wine strains, and strains used for rice wine and sake were most closely related to beer and bread strains. However, up to 28% of genetic diversity between these technological groups was associated with geographical differences which suggests local domestications. Focusing on wine yeasts, a group of Lebanese strains were basal in an F_ST tree, suggesting a Mesopotamia-based origin of most wine strains. In Europe, migration of wine strains occurred through the Danube Valley, and around the Mediterranean Sea. An approximate Bayesian computation approach suggested a postglacial divergence (most probable period 10 000-12 000 bp). As our results suggest intimate association between man and wine yeast across centuries, we hypothesize that yeast followed man and vine migrations as a commensal member of grapevine flora.

Nico, that's a very good question, but I'm afraid I don't really know the answer. I think one reason it won't show up in the beginning is because the pH gets fairly low before the wild yeast will start growing. Too low for L.sf., which doesn't grow at all below pH 3.8. Once the yeast start to grow, and refreshment rate and frequency increase, the pH gradually rises back up, and the conditions become more suitable for growth of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis. But not knowing exactly where they come from or what they need to become active, I'd only be speculating that you can hurry them along. I find it interesting that in the procedural notes of research papers, the growth media used is complex and always contains yeast extract in the mix. Maybe L.sf. needs something that the yeast produce. Or, maybe they just have a 2-week lag phase. I wish I knew. I would certainly recommend feeding your starter twice a day :-)

Here is a graph showing the effect of pH on growth of two strains of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and one Candida humilis (formerly known as C. milleri). This is from Modeling of Growth of Lactobacillus sanfranciscensis and Candida milleri in Response to Process Parameters of Sourdough Fermentation (1998), by Ganzle, Ehmann and Hammes:

http://aem.asm.org/content/vol64/issue7/images/large/am0780130002.jpeg

FIG. 2.  Effect of pH on L. sanfranciscensis LTH2581 () and LTH1729 () and C. milleri LTH H198 () (A) and effect of NaCl addition expressed as ionic strength on the growth of L. sanfranciscensis LTH2581 and C. milleri LTH H198 (B). The lines represent the predicted growth rates. Error bars indicate the standard deviations from the means of three independent experiments. The shaded areas represent the ranges commonly encountered during sourdough fermentations.

-dw

P.S.  I've noticed a lot of people using 'LAB' when what they really mean is Lactobacillus or lactobacilli. LAB stands for Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is a large group of bacteria that all produce lactic acid while fermenting sugars. The lactobacilli certainly fall under that heading, but so do many other genera, including Leuconostoc, Weissella, Pediococcus, and many others that are commonly found in sourdoughs and other fermented or spoiled foods. The abbreviation for Lactobacillus is simply L. or Lb. Hope that clears up the confusion :-)

and thank you too. Welcom to TFL :-)

Every once in awhile, I google to see what people are saying, and have come across a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about it. That is one of the reasons I wrote the article. Unfortunately, I can't help people's misinterpretation of it. You'll never hear me say that pineapple juice is necessary in creating a starter---only patience.

But without the internet, the pineapple juice fix would never have been conceived in the first place, and I would not have been able to do the research or have the benefit of feedback, or even to be here on TFL today. So, I guess I can live with the downside. And I do believe there are a lot more proud sourdough parents as a result.

I did talk with Jeffrey about a lot of different things in the all-too-brief spare moments. Although I was there to take advantage of what he had to teach, pineapple juice did come up once. He asked about its purpose, and I gave a brief explanation. That was it; we had dough to divide and shape :-)

-dw

I remember this same thing happening to a woman in Florida once. Mold growth took over in less than 24 hours after feeding. She lived in a warm, humid climate, which is what I think of in Mexico. But you say you're at 5000 ft---what is the ambient temperature in your kitchen?

I'm guessing that you probably don't need to keep it in the oven, and light bulbs put out more heat sometimes than we realize. Have you taken a temperature reading inside your oven to be sure that the temperature doesn't climb higher than about 80ºF? I know mine will get to over 100º in a few hours.

Once you've confirmed that the temperature is okay, the best way to deter the mold is by manipulating the starter more frequently, say, giving it a stir and scrape down at least once in between feedings. Manipulating the starter is actually more important than feeding it in the first 3 days of the process, just to keep mold at bay. The reason I have people feed it every day is so it gets manipulated and not forgotten. But you may need to be more aggressive in fighting mold. You might even want to transfer it to a clean container each time so mold doesn't start at the residue on the sides. It will develop resistance once it's established, but there is no resistance in the beginning, not even with pineapple juice.

Let me know if you continue to have trouble.
-dw

Good to hear you stuck it out and you're up and running. Now it's time to increase the feedings, either by increasing the flour or by decreasing the amount of starter in proportion, so that you're making a bigger dilution of the ripe starter with fresh flour and water. And you'll also want to feed at least twice a day. If it stays very warm, a firm starter may be a good choice for you, but you can settle into whatever hydration rate feels right with your flour and works well in your breads.

Welcome to sourdough, and good luck with the stove. You might want to buy yourself a good oven thermometer.

dw

So sorry I missed this a while back; I've been on a break of sorts this summer.

Welcome to sourdough :-)
-dw

A lot of the time when trying to manipulate the timing with sourdoughs, you'll use cold water.  Perhaps if you feed your starter with ice-cold water at the beginning of the peak of the day's heat, say 11:00-12:00, you could mitigate some of the effects of the temperature?

Just a suggestion, I'm in a more temperate zone.  I'd like to know, though, since I have family by marriage in the tropics and I'd love to know what works so I can indulge myself if I ever get an opportunity to stay there for a while.

I don't know what you mean by clotting, but if it is already rising with a yeasty aroma, then yes, you will need to feed frequently at that temperature in order to maintain leavening power. It wouldn't hurt to firm it up by reducing the water as well.

Welcome,
-dw

This is my 2nd try using 2tbsp cold orange juice + 2 tbsp whole wheat.

1st 9 hours 0000hr to 0900hr - and this is the result: 3 bubbles formed, and a layer of clear liquid on top. I put it in my room with my air con at 27C while I sleep. But I don't switch on my air con after 9am. So the next few hours we will see how it goes... Temperatures in my locality is 31C, raining now.

The rest of Day 1, I left it in the room, with the cool air till 1900hrs. I reckond the average temperature should be max 30C, building up from 27C after I switch off the aircon. I did switch on the aircon for about 2 hours again in between at 27C. From 1900hrs, air con is back in action.

At Day2, 0000hrs, Still smelling good, nothing strong. But i see more tiny holes!

Day 2 0950hrs, seeing a layer of liquid at the top. This is when I switched off my aircon too.

Top view - seem to have some mini "dunes"

For the rest of day 2, I did the same again, leaving the bowl in the cool air of the room, and not opening the door of the room.

The result - still smelling ok. nothing pungent. But I see froth. (sorry about the shadow :P)

After feeding, I see a few holes forming immediately.

PS: Just a sidetrack, for this round of trial, I did not stir the mixture. Instead I swirl the mixture 3 times in the container itself (which mixes the layer of liquid back too). The first time I tried, I was mixing with a plastic stirrer and the mixture is in the kitchen.

Should I be posting more? I think I am quite a "nuisance" now, posting updates daily... I am thinking of putting it back out in the real normal room temperature at 31C, not sure if I have the guts...hahaha.. I can't be using aircon at this rate, my bills will blow!

Debra, you are a true veteran.

Day 3 1000hrs, I was happily seeing more bubbles like this

So I happily mixed the mixture, and then to my horror I saw this:

Then..i saw your reply...*faint*

Nonetheless, I scooped up the mixture - to experiment further (but not to eat it ultimately, cause there is mold in it)

Afterthat, the mixture has less bubbles, and lesser bubbles, and then no bubbles.

Nonetheless, again, on Day 4 0000hrs I fed it again, using the plain flour, as planned.

I saw a few bubbles, v few.

And this is the result on Day 4 1730hrs

Hm... should be dying right?

Previously I also failed on using raisins to create yeast water. Once the water has mold floating on top, the raisins will start to sink to the bottom of the jar - as if the yeast activity slowed down. Then all the raisins will fall to the bottom of the jar. Similar concept? I suppose...? Anyone with same experience?

I am so ready to try again. This time, I will apply orange juice at the container's inner walls (just kidding), and keep a clean wall :P

Mike, it's good to hear your starter has taken off. I'm sorry, I didn't see this last night, but you're okay either way. You could have fed it, but if you didn't, it will still be fine. The warmer temperature certainly could have made it rise faster, but at day 5, it may have just been ready regardless of the temp. Anything over 85ºF continuously, is not good for the wild yeast, and may cost you leavening power in the long run. But 70º is fine, and the yeast will still do quite well. So room temperature is preferable to uncontrolled heat now that your starter is expanding.

You can feed it more frequently now. Let it show you what it needs. Allow it to rise as high as it will (without stirring), and feed before it collapses too much. Two or three times a day is best. You can increase the refreshment (or decrease the ripe starter) until you find a feeding rate that works with your schedule.

Once you're sure you have a viable starter, there isn't any need to keep both unless you just want to. If it hasn't started rising after 10 days, I'm guessing the first one is either on a diet of only white flour at this point, or is getting fed too much or too often. It will work eventually, but no telling how long it will take. In my experience, usually 14+ days, but you can help things along by switching to whole wheat or whole rye until it starts expanding.

How do they look today?

-dw

How very kind of you to say :-)

-dw

I did my fair project on antacids---determining the efficacy of different brands, by measuring (with titration) the amount of acid that each could neutralize. Boy, that was a long time ago. Sourdough starter is so much cooler :-)  Take lots of pictures, and let us know how it turns out.

When to refrigerate, is one of the most frequently asked questions after people start this process, as if getting it into the refrigerator is the goal. But ordinarily, the goal is getting or keeping it in shape to bake with (that is the purpose of a starter, after all), which means keeping it active and well fed. Refrigeration is for suspending activity as much as possible, during those times when you're done with it for a while and want to put it away.

What is your intention for these starters? If you're done with the experiment, and you've gotten all the data you set out to collect, then you can just let them go to the great sourdough compost pile in the sky. No one needs to keep and feed 6 jars of starter. Refrigerator real estate is far too valuable (I'm sure your mother will agree). Or, you can find them new homes with baking friends who are ready to adopt.

Have you seen Paul's Yumarama Bread Blog?

http://yumarama.com/blog/968/starter-from-scratch-intro/

Best of luck at the fair,
Debra Wink

Oceanicthai. you're very welcome, and thank you.

There are basically five variables that influence starter character and health:

• Temperature
• Hydration
• Feeding rate
• Feeding frequency
• Flour

Think of the ones you can control as your tools.

Once a day feeding at 80+ temperatures is clearly not enough. That degree of warmth is challenging to starter health, but fortunately you can adjust one or more of the other factors to compensate and make it work for you. It will require diligence though, and twice a day feedings are the minimum. You are already on the right track there, but three times would be even better if you can manage it. When you can't make a feeding, rather than letting it sit out to over ripen, park it in the refrigerator to slow things down until you can get back on track.

The next point of attack is hydration. Firm it up as much as you can---50%, if you can work in that much flour, or whatever level of hydration that makes it a little bit of work to knead in the last bit of flour.

Reduce (or increase) the percentage of ripe starter in your feedings until you find the feeding rate that will just ripen the starter before it's time to feed again. You don't want to see it collapse and deflate between refreshments.

The last point is the flour itself. Use only white flour to refresh the starter. Save the whole grains for your final dough.

Whenever you make a change to your routine, be patient and give it at least a week or two to adjust. There will be some shifting of the populations, and possibly even a complete changeover in the dominant organisms. Natural selection will work in your favor if you feed well, and give it time to readjust.

Give those suggestions a try for a few weeks, and let me know how it goes.

-dw

You're very welcome. I'm so glad it turned around quickly for you.

Happy Baking!
dw

You're entirely welcome, Oceanicthai. A little understanding was all it took. That's one healthy-looking boule.

Wishing you lots of sourdough successes :-)

Amanda, since I can't see your starter, I'm going to make an assumption that there was residue on the sides of your jar, as in this example:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2#comment-134604  

And, if you're sure it isn't that, then here's another possibility and its solution.  

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10901/pineapple-juice-solution-part-2#comment-108418  

Are you using whole rye flour? I ask, because some rye flours are refined, and that will make a difference in how well things work. Make sure the flour you refresh with is whole grain until there is lift-off from yeast. Then you can switch to the flour of your choice.

If it happens again, you're welcome to post a picture so that I can see what's going on.

Best wishes,
dw

The microbial profile that establishes itself in a starter is selected by the environmental conditions inside that starter, which is a result of the combination of temperature and maintenance practices (hydration, refreshment rate, frequency, etc.). Air and flour aren't the only places that microorganisms can come from, although the organisms in the flour are the ones that take off and populate a starter initially. The microbial community in an individual starter is the eventual result of natural selection under the given conditions, until equilibrium is reached. Change the conditions, and the balance shifts.

There are several species that have been found in established sourdough starters and nowhere else---not flour, or air---making that debate a little pointless. It doesn't necessarily mean they don't exist anywhere else (they have to come from somewhere), just that the source isn't known. And a few have also been found in the intestinal tract of humans, or pigs, or another warm-blooded animal. It isn't clear if that's the only place they exist outside of sourdough, or how they find their way into starters, but what is clear is that certain species correlate well with certain maintenance practices. Where the flour comes from doesn't seem to matter too much. That means that if you maintain a starter the same way it was maintained in the other location, you may be able to preserve (or cultivate) its distinctive microbial profile. But most people don't.

In short: regional flavors really don't have anything to do with air or geographic location, but everything to do with unique regional practices of maintaining starters and making bread from them. Both processes need to be in allignment with the desired type of bread.

"at every temperature the LAB growth rate is higher than the yeast growth rate.  But that can't be true over the full refreshment cycle for a starter or the population of yeast would gradually decline over multiple generations and the yeast would disappear."

Indeed. And you're right. What those graphs don't show you is the disparity in the time it takes for the various populations to start growing. Yeast start growing first. LAB join in. Yeast stop growing at some point, while LAB keep going for a while. It's a game of leap-frog. Ideally, the refreshment cycle ends when the yeast stop growing, but before the LAB stop. That keeps the LAB in check, and the yeast population from declining.

"I have not seen any writings that explain what constitutes "mature starter" in terms of LAB/yeast population ratio or absolute numerical densities. There seems to be an opportunity to tune the regeneration process (and thus the population density evolution during bulk fermentation) to achieve specific goals" 

There really are no set values associated with starter maturity. Ratio and population densities vary from starter to starter, and are a function of starter maintenance practices. In general, increasing temperature and/or hydration increases LAB:yeast. Larger refreshments less frequently also increase the ratio, while smaller refreshments more frequently decrease it.

"Is there theory, data, or at least insight into the dynamics of this coupled system of biochemical processes that might be of value in managing the results outside of the lab.  The most basic question is "what constitutes a mature starter and what is the biochemical trajectory of a refreshment cycle"?" 

Yes to the first question, and I think you'll find answers to the second in this thread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/14913/very-liquid-sourdough 

dw

You're welcome, Keith. I'm sorry that you've been struggling with your starter.

This is 100% hydration KA WW starter, 2:1:1 maintenance (starter:water:flour). It doesn't smell familiar to me, but I've never had a WW starter before. It's not 'beery', but it doesn't stink either. It also doesn't smell like the initial flour and water. I can't really describe it other than, it's not bad, and not being familiar with what's 'good' for a WW starter, I don't know if it's correct yet. It's been fed at 2:1:1 every 12 hrs for the last several weeks now.

WW starters do have their own smell, as do rye starters, but they ferment faster than white, and so they need to be fed more.

After the WW was stabilized for a week or so, I used it to inoculate a KA AP (unbleached) starter in a separate container (again 2:1:1). It immediately turned to glue, and I recalled the previous discussions (mentioned above) about protealysis affecting this exact same transformation. The smell was horrible, the stuff was almost nigh impossible to wash off of my stirring device, it was that sticky. 12 hrs later, I fed it 2:1:1 with the white flour, and it DIED.

Proteolysis will liquify your starter, but not in a gluey way --- more like thin pancake batter. What you describe sounds like the thiol issues I've talked about elsewhere. Proteolysis and thiol compounds both affect gluten, but in different ways.

All this time fussing with this, I have faithfully kept up the WW starter, but as mentioned above, it only exactly doubles on a 2:1:1 feed, never changes, and has no alcohol nor sour smell.

My current concern is, the AP starter has been on a 1:1:1 for a week or so, and there is no sour smell, it is overwhelmingly alcohol. When I stir it down, there appears to be NO protealysis at all, and in fact, seems like the gluten has actually strengthened (it pulls away from the side of the glass). Should I start feeding it every 24 hrs instead of 12? Convert it back to 100% hydration? Both? It peaks at about 5.5 hours and starts collapsing in on itself around the 6th hour...

Both starters need more feeding, rather than less. If it is collapsing at 6 hours, that's when it needs to be fed, unless you increase the refreshments to at least 1:2:2 (or more if need be) to slow ripening. By the way, 1:1:1 is 100% hydration. Any time you are adding equal weights of flour and water (to any amount of starter), that is 100%. Whatever you do, do not go back to a 2:1:1 feeding unless you intend to feed every 4-6 hours. That just is not enough this time of year, and is most likely the root of your problems. I don't recommend feeding less than twice a day, and you may wish to reduce the hydration to extend the ripening time (use less water in proportion to flour).

Give those things a try, and I think you'll see improvement. Keep in mind that lactic acid, doesn't have an aroma, so you can't tell how sour your starter is by smelling it. I'll bet it's more sour than you realize :-)

-dw