The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Panettone and "Boy, am I spoiled now"

karladiane's picture
karladiane

Panettone and "Boy, am I spoiled now"

Hi all:  I've been out of internet contact for a while, and it's nice to be back.


Two quick things:  First, I made the Panettone from BBA, and YUM!  I made 4 of them, gave 2 away, and sliced one up to put in the freezer which gave me weeks of heavenly toast for breakfast!



But here is the second thing.  I haven't baked a loaf in a week or so, so my husband decided to pick up a "Sourdough Boule" (which was labeled an "Artisan Bread") at Trader Joe's.  I expected a mediocre loaf, but it was downright abominable.  Has anyone else been entirely ruined by baking at home, and then not being able to handle a commercial loaf?


Happy New Year all!


KP

holds99's picture
holds99

Nice job on the panattones KP. 


I feel your pain re: supermarket "Artisan Bread".  The stuff is, as you said, abominable.  Only real use I've found for it is feeding the seagulls that hang out near the pier at the beach.  They aren't too particular, they seem to enjoy it.  In fact, they fight over it...go figure :>)


Howard

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

San Francisco seagulls would turn up their beaks at that bread. "What? Trader Joe's? Where's the Acme? Semifreddi? At least you could have fed us Boudin!"


They're spoiled.


Like us.


David

Janet Campbell's picture
Janet Campbell

Hi,


I've only been baking bread at home for three weeks but from the day I started I haven't bought a loaf of any kind from a store. It's easy, fun, doesn't take too much time, it's better for you and best of all my husband likes to bake with me!


Your panettone looks delish.


Janet

Soundman's picture
Soundman

Hey karladiane,


That panettone is gorgeous! I better not show my wife your pix or I won't be allowed to bake anything but panettone anymore. That's the one storebought "bread" we still buy, imported Italian naturally.


Up until I began baking sourdough, 8 months ago or so, we would periodically buy a loaf of "artisan bread" at one store or another, and were shocked to find they are universally tasteless. Even the bread at the farmer's markets isn't close to what TFL bakers are used to baking and eating.


Needless to say, sourdough was the final nail in the storebought bread coffin. I guess you could say both literally and figuratively!


Glad to see you back on TFL.


David

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

Hi karladiane,


Beautiful panettone! 


Would you please tell me what "panettone from BRA" is?  I'm stumped. 


I've been baking Jim Lahey's "Best Ever Panettone", from the December 2008 issue of Gourmet Magazine.  It's really good but I'd love to try yours!


Can't you direct me to where I would find the recipe?  Or could you print it here or PM it to me?


Thank you in advance and best wishes for a Happy New Year,


ValerieSara

gaaarp's picture
gaaarp

Valerie, the reference is to BBA, which is short-hand for Peter Reinhart's book, Bread Baker's Apprentice.  I'm not sure what paneoone from BRA is, but I don't think I'd want to eat it. ;-)

Larry Clark's picture
Larry Clark


ValerieSara wrote:


Would you please tell me what "panettone from BRA" is?  I'm stumped



It's BBA and stands for Bread Baker's Apprentice, a book by Peter Reinhart that you'll see referred to a lot here.


I don't have the Panettone recipe but someone will.  I don't know if it can be posted here though


 


Larry

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

LOL, that's what I get for not wearing my glasses!  Ok, they're on now!


Anyway, I have that book and the recipe is on pages 202 to 206!  Wow, you did the barm, huh?  Kudos.  I wonder if you have tried Lahey's and how it compares.  BTW, Reinhardt has a panettone recipe, no barm involved, and I didn't like the finished product.  Like I said, yours looks awesome.  Did the crumb have a nice tear to it?


Thanks, ValerieSara

karladiane's picture
karladiane

Hi there:


I just got back to computer, and was very amused at the BBA versus BRA mix-up. ha ha ha.  I'm afraid that my copy of BRA is not large enough to make a loaf - ha ha.  So I'll stick to BBA.


Anyway, yes, I did the barm version, and I just used the normal, liquid-y barm that I propagate every week.  This was my first panettone, so next year, I think I'll try to get my hands on some other versions just for fun and experimentation.  Thanks for the suggestion.


The crumb on mine was very nice and tender and the only thing I would change is to bake them maybe 5-10 minutes shorter than what Reinhart recommends - but then again, my oven is unpredictable.


Also of note, 2 things, I think, made this bread extra special.  I made my own candied orange peel, and it's so easy to do and makes such a big difference, I'll never use store-bought peel of any kind.


And lastly, I used Fiori di Sicilia extract mixed with lemon extract and brandy to soak the fruit.  The Fiori di Sicilia extract, I believe, gave the bread the most wonderful aroma.  I ordered it from King Arthur Flour online.


Happy baking all!


karladiane

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

I wish I could say that the BRA v BBA was a typo.  But it wasn't.  So, i'll take my lumps, if you'll pardon the pun, haha!  Bra-wise, yes, ditto what you said, lol!


I, also, use fiori di Sicilia in my panettone, and I, too, get it at KAF along with my paper molds.  To make panettone without fiori di Sicilia is akin to making amaretti without almond extract, imho.  Substituting vanilla and orange extracts for fiori di Sicilia is just not the correct essence for panettone.


Anyway, I am very confused on how to make a bram, even though Peter goes into much detail. Too much detail.  Could you 1-2-3 the process for me?


I would so appreciate it and only whenever you get the time.


Thank you and thanks for your great sense of humor!


ValerieSara

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

What georgous loaves...I would love to sit down and have a slice of your loaf with a cup of tea!!


Storebought...some of the ingredients are scary!!


Sylvia

johnster's picture
johnster

I know EXACTLY what you mean!  When I don't have time to bake or suddenly find myself all out of bread, I can't believe the poor quality of what I'm getting at the stores.  


 


And pizza???  Why on Earth can a home-baker like me with a home-oven like mine blow away all the local pizza joints (every single one of them)?....  Ok.  Enough of my complaining.  Let it be said that I am convinced that this is a KILLER hobby with OUTSTANDING payoffs.  (When I got into this, I had no idea just how good it was going to get.)


 


Anyway, your pannetone look AMAZING!  I've got a barm in the kitchen that I just started today so that I can try a BBA pannetone, myself, before all the snow is gone.  I think that if mine come out looking half as nice as yours, I'll be tickled pink!  :)  Well done.


 


Johnster


 

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

Your pannetonne looks wonderful. I have toyed with the idea of making it but don't know where to get the paper moulds. Can you share your source?


Thanks.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

You can get paper moulds from King Arthur if you are in the US.


If in europe, then you can order from Italy. I got mine from www.simani.it


You can also make your own from double layered baking parchment (no pan support required).  http://profumodilievito.blogspot.com/2008/12/stampi-per-panettone.html


Here's my blurb on it FWIW:


http://foolishpoolishbakes.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/panettone/


Hope that helps


FP


Additional: with regards to flavourings, personally I don't think the rather expensive fior di sicilia is necessary for authentic flavour/aroma...especially as it is not, to my knowledge (despite what certain companies claim), a traditional ingredient in panettone or pandoro.  If you follow a good recipe, the complex sourdough flavours and aromas in combination with some good vanilla extract or vanilla pod really will evoke all the goodness of a traditional panettone without any of the staleness of store-bought.


 

xaipete's picture
xaipete

I didn't know that you could just make your own and bake without support.


--Pamela

SallyBR's picture
SallyBR

But, but... I though the ladies were all baking with the BRA 


(sorry, could not resist... :-)

Boboshempy's picture
Boboshempy

Well the holiday season is approaching and I figured if I want to make a killer Panettone this year it would be smart if I made some practice ones...I know, call me crazy.


 


So, I was wondering if anyone that has posted on this topic has continued their perfection of the perfect Panettone and how everyone is doing with it.  Any updates?


 


Also, I am obsessed with making it as traditional as possible and people have been mentioning different fruit additions and the use of fior di sicilia.  Does anyone know what would be considered the most traditional ingredients in Panettone, even if you personally don't put it in because you don't like the flavor?


 


Later,


 


Nick

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I, too, want to try making it since it is really hard to find in my part of the world and what I do find is usually not that fresh, Still, I adore the stuff and love to make french toast ith the stale stuff. Mmmmm. I plan on ordering the fior di sicilia from KAF- do you have another, prehaps cheaper, source?


Amaz.

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

From what I've read, eaten and recipes I've found, Fior di Sicilia is not a traditional flavouring ingredient for Panettone (despite what King Arthur might claim). No disrespect to King Arthur who do produce great bread flours, but we are talking about a company which sells 'Pizza Dough Flavor' as an ingredient!


The classic Panettone flavour comes from the long rising time and 'sweet' biga naturale (repeatedly fed at four hour intervals) as well as, of course, the butter, sugar and often candied fruit. Honey is sometimes added (as well as glucose syrup in commercial baking). Vanilla is the only other flavouring which might be considered 'traditional'.


FP


 

hansjoakim's picture
hansjoakim

No kidding, FP? I mean, really? Pizza dough flavour?? What would that be then? Some herbs, salt, perhaps some sourdough powder? I wonder if there's room for more of such "flavouring" products - Vollkornbrot-flavour or croissant-flavour?

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Amazingly yes - they also offer 'deli rye flavor' and 'heidelberg rye sour'. Great huh? :)


 

Boboshempy's picture
Boboshempy


 


So, I ran over to Sullivan Street Bakery at lunch today 10-26-09 and grabbed one of their Tradizional Panettone to give a try due to all the hub-bub about it.  They also have a chocolate one but I wanted to try a regular one first.  I also grabbed a slice of their phenomenal bianca con pecorino pizza they sell, but that is another story.


 


The taste and scent were great!  The rum soaked raisins and the citron was perfect, possibly the best part.  The citron is very light in color and cubed.  It seems to be baked precisely, judging by the color and moistness but the crumb and texture was a little disappointment.  It didn't have the pull/shred that I was expecting.  Hopefully you can see this in the picture.  The person at the counter said that "it was baked 2 weeks ago but they last for 3 months", haha.  I would say that while the Panettone is still good, I would not call it super fresh and I think that was its downfall.  I think it stales sooner than they think.  Yet, I have not had a more recently baked one from them so I do not have something to compare it to.  It may always be like this.


 


I took some pictures so everyone could get an idea of the size of it (it says NET WT .5K on the tag, I am not sure what that means but it is not huge), what the crumb and fruit looks like inside, how it is cooked, and exactly what you get for your money.


 


PS They do not use any flavors or flavor powders to give it its taste or scent.  I would say that this is very close to the recipe that he has put out.


 


Nick

SallyBR's picture
SallyBR

For those following the "Challenge", this was bread number 24 out of the 43 from BBA book.


We absolutely loved it!  I thought fiori di Sicilia was a traditional addition, maybe  because all panettoni sold in Brazil definitely contains it. I grew up with that smell around the house during holidays...


I will definitely be making it again, but feel that the paper baking thingies is the way to go. Because my pan was a little bigger than 6 inches, my bread is not as high as it should have been. But the taste... WOW!


If anyone is interested, I posted about it on my blog, but here is a photo of the crumb...


http://bewitchingkitchen.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/bba24-panettone/


Great recipe!

amazonium's picture
amazonium

I didn't buy any last year- couldn't find it locally but THIS year I will be baking my own! My sourdough has always been a hit-and-miss affair, so I will look for a yeasted recipe. Mmmmmmm, I can almost taste it!

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

I've tried almost every Panettone recipe on the planet and, to me, Jim Lahey's is the most "correct" in texture by far.


By the way, the distinctive flavor and aroma of the various brands of panettone which the Italian government deems as authentic, have the essence of a flower indigenous to Mount Etna and Fiori di Sicila is what it smells and tastes like. So, although they use the actual flower in authentic panettone, the essence that the Fiori di Sicilia delivers is as close as you can get without using the actual flower.  For me, being pure Italian, I cannot imagine Panettone without it.


 

SallyBR's picture
SallyBR

Valerie, I would love to hear your opinion on how to bake panettone - do you think the paper molds are absolutely necessary?


 


I am tempted to get some for my next batch

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

The paper molds, for me, are essential, especially for Lahey's recipe. I've tried other molds such as cans, for instance, and even no mold. But I really like the results using the paper molds.


Having said all that, using any mold in Italy is rather modern and you will still find that many of the authenic Pantettone bakeries (recognized as authentic by the government) still use no molds whatsoever.  The finished product is not as high as what we are accoustomed to seeing, but that is how Panettone was prepared many, many years ago and some fabulous bakeries over there stick to traditon. If you do go the paper mold route, just make sure you purchase the correct size as specified in the recipe.


I neglected to say that Lahey's recipe not only produces a product with spot on texture, but the taste is also superb.


 


And  Sally, I just took a look at the photo of your Panettone. THAT is what i'm talking about-that looks like the real deal! Brava!

SallyBR's picture
SallyBR

I will take a "brava" coming from an Italian anytime!  You made my day!


 


Not to hijack a bread thread, but I LOVE Italy!   Been there four times, considered spending a year for a sabbatical in Siena, but ended up in Paris instead.  Well, life has difficult choices sometimes...   :-)


 

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

Thank you, Sally! ...and you ended up in Paris, huh? I'm jealous!

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

If you would like to try your hand at a more traditional 'naturally leavened' recipe:


Panettone


http://foolishpoolishbakes.wordpress.com/2008/12/29/panettone/


It really is worth the effort but it requires about 2 days devoted to the dough.


Cheers,


FP

ValerieSara's picture
ValerieSara

Wow, another beautiful Panettone... this thread is filled with them.  The texture looks fabulous, as though it would have a nice 'tear/shred' to it. Well done, FP!

amazonium's picture
amazonium

Now THAT is what I'm talking about! I can almost smell it and I can see how feathery soft it is. Okay, I'm in! I just refreshed my starter....


Amaz.

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

Is it me, or does Lahey's seem more cake like, as pictured a few posts above? That also seems to be the case from this other blog that is presumably following his recipe:


http://www.andreasrecipes.com/2008/12/25/slow-rise-panettone/


Understandable as that seems to be the texture of some no knead breads.


Some of the others pictured here seem a little more feathery textured, somewhat challah to brioche like. I guess there's all kinds.

Boboshempy's picture
Boboshempy

This is some great stuff!


 


FP - Your Panettone recipe looks fantastic!  That is a great finished product.  I am definitely going to experiment with yours too.  My starter "Paul" thanks you.


 


Dwighttsharpe - I know Lahey's Panettone looks somewhat cakelike in my picture above but I think it is because it is a little stale and it didn't cut cleanly.  It is a little denser and doesn't have the large irregular holes that FP's picture has above but it does have the feathery textured like challah and brioche has.


 


There has been a bit of info and discussion on what flours to use when making Panettone, in the interest of what is traditional does anyone know what type of flour is used?  Is it true that 00 flour is the correct flour to use and is used in Italy for this product??  I use 00 flour to make my Neapolitan style pizza.  I didn't realize the use of 00 flour was that extensive...what else is it used to make in Italy?


 


Thanks,


 


Nick

foolishpoolish's picture
foolishpoolish

Thanks for the compliment Nick. If you visit some of the italian flour mill websites, you can actually find flour sold specifically for long-fermentation breads such as Panettone. 00 simply refers to the degree/fineness of milling. The blend of wheats determines the strength, elasticity etc.


Since it's hard to find those flours outside of Italy, I tend to use a mix of 00 medium strength (11% protein) and canadian hard wheat flour ('Manitoba' in Italy). I believe flours like Caputo Rosso or 'Rinforzato' might be your best bet, if you want to stick with 100% 00...although I have no first hand experience.


On this page, there's a link to a cool video of panettone being made in a bakery:


Cheers, 


FP


 

SallyBR's picture
SallyBR

Wonderful video! Thanks to Portuguese being close to Italian, I could follow 90% of it - loved how at the end he inverts the panettone to allow the butter to re-distribute in the bread.   Very interesting.


 


the machine that kneads the dough is amazing, mimics so well the movement of a baker's arms!


 


I will have to watch the ciabatta and baguette next.

amazonium's picture
amazonium

because I can't understand most of what they are saying in Italian and still I am mesmerized watching the giant dough mixers, wishing I had something like that. I think I now have flour and yeast in my blood....


 

Boboshempy's picture
Boboshempy

Great vids!  Have you seen this one?  It is great too as well as the other videos in his profile.


 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2i_quMztVk


 


Nick

Boboshempy's picture
Boboshempy


So, I finally made Jim Lahey's "Best Ever Panettone", from the December 2008 issue of Gourmet Magazine that everyone has been raving about.  I can tell you that it is the greatest thing I have ever made.  I am very happy with it.


Here are some pics.


Nick

Liam's picture
Liam

Hi All


For what it's worth, I sent my very Italian daughter in law on a hunt for Fiore di Sicilia for panettone.  ALL  of her relatives, especially her very talented Nonna thought she was nuts.  She had to explain the eccentricities of her non-Italian in-laws and their bread baking addiction.  The final verdict from her family is that Fiore di Sicilia is for the "outsiders".  The traditional flavorings come from the ingredients and the method.  Also of note is that they all find that the Bauli panettone is as good as or better than home made, from a flavour point of view and because someone else gets to do the hard part.  All that is left up to them is to eat and enjoy!


Who knew?


L