The Fresh Loaf

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JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

Discussion On Low Hydration & Learning To Shape

Like so many others, learning to work with high hydration dough is tough, especially when very new to the game, as am I.

While I've had successes with higher hydration (72-75%), trying to form a proper boule is less than pleasurable and they've always been in a Dutch oven.

I longingly (is that a word?) watch the "dough handling" skills of those who are very experienced and good at what they do and know (hope?) that one day, that will be me. So I said to myself "Self, what's the best path to get THERE?"

So, I came up with a plan, putting together snippets of information I've gathered from the knowledgeable, experienced and generous folks here and in other sites. Basically, my goal is to get to the point where I can form a boule at 75% hydration and have it hold it's shape and bake it free-form with nice oven spring. 

First question: is that a reasonable goal?My thought is that given a proper mix (I.e.: good processes and proper gluten formation), the handling of the dough and forming of the boule (or batard, whatever) is entirely in the hands of the person. Basically, with my skillset right now, if I was standing side by side with some of you, using the same batch of dough, you would end up with a nicely baked loaf and I would probably end up with something that could only be described as a thick pancake.

So with that thought in mind, I decided to go back to basics, forego the nice open crumb and start at 65%. My first attempt was an impressive fail. On to the next (yesterday) and I was pleased with my success. While somewhat hard to work with for S&F, the forming of the boule was actually a pleasure. It came together so nice and obviously held it's shape. This was my first nice loaf baked free-form:

This one crackled so strong I could actually see bits of flour jumping off the crust. Unfortunately, I had to leave minutes after it came out of the oven and couldn't cut it until midnight when I got home.

It was dark and the colours are off on the crumb, it was a little darker because of the WW starter I used, but not nearly as dark as this shows. Also, while it looks gummy and underbaked, it's not:

So, moving forward, I now have a loaf on bulk ferment that has a hydration of 67% (180 gms WW starter @ 100%, 540 gms white unbleached AP flour and 332 gms of water), and I also remembered on this one to add a tbs of vital gluten.

Now, next question: I am finding it tough to get the dough to stretch on an S&F without tearing it at this low percentage. I believe I've read that tearing the dough during S&Fs during bulk isn't a good thing. I'm looking for advice on this one.

So, I welcome thoughts on your knowledge and experiences!

Jamie

alfanso's picture
alfanso

Hamelman Olive Levain (as baguettes, of course)

I did my due diligence searching for anyone who had made this bread either without using a mixer or had made this as baguettes.  My search came up empty on both accounts.  So it was high time to take the plunge.  This is my first bake from Mr. Hamelman's book, although I did bake two of his pain au levain breads from formulae posted by someone somewhere on the Web.  This bread has a combination of castelvetrano and kalmata olives.

I'd never worked with as stiff a dough before, by at least 4-5%.  This one clocks in 63% hydration, and performing French Folds on this bread was akin to performing French Folds on a flaccid basketball.  The dough sure was stiff and I did't know what to expect down the line.  But the results are quite satisfying, and as with all of the breads that I've made for the first time, I really didn't quite know what to expect.  But the dough became more manageable and extensive between folds1 and 2 and more so on the final fold.  

Shaping was a cinch, and the amount of oven spring speaks for itself.  The crust has a satisfyingly sharp snap to it and the amount of olives, 25%, pretty much guarantees some olive in just abut every bite.

I didn't want to risk blowing the whole bake on baguettes that might have turned out to be trash-worthy, so I hedged my bets with 2 stubby baguettes and one batard.

Changes from original formula included:

  • Resized the dough amount to 1000g total.
  • "Autolyse" without the called-for salt.
  • Hand mixing rather than by machine.  150 French Folds, a 5 minute rest and then another 150 French Folds.
  • Olives incorporated at 1st set of Letter Folds instead of at end of mix.
  • 3 Letter Folds instead of 1.
  • 2 hr. bulk fermentation instead of 2 1/2 hrs.
  • Overnight retard and bake straight out of retard rather than bench top proof and bake.

 2x350g baguettes, 1x750g batard.  13 minutes steam: baguettes total bake time- 28 min.  Batard total bake time - 33 min + 2 min venting.

For comparison I made 2 125% liquid levains concurrently.  One using my 60% stiff rye starter and one using my standard 75% mixed flour ever ready levain. 2 builds, just as Mr. Hamelman suggests.  As I discovered, the ever ready levain based mix outpaced the stiff rye contender easily.  Not only was the top populated with a lot of frothy bubbles after each build but it grew significantly more.  The levain on the right was used in the mix.

after first build (~8 hrs).

after 2nd build (~3-4 hrs).  I knocked back the growth on the right one before realizing that I wanted to take this picture, so the delta between the two is even more pronounced than the picture indicates. 

alan

DDoutel's picture
DDoutel

When to divide the dough??

Hey folks,

Thinking of scaling ingredients to bake 2 loaves instead of one. I'm using Trevor Wilson's recipe and methods here: http://www.breadwerx.com/how-to-get-open-crumb-from-stiff-dough-video/, and don't want to de-gas at all. I also don't want to have to work each loaf separately. At what point in the process do I divide the dough?

Thanks in advance, TFL!

DDoutel

 

jacmosh's picture
jacmosh

Hollow bread

Hi there,

I've been messing around with high hydration sourdough breads and the last two times I produced hollow bread. I'm wonder if this means that I'm not developing the gluten enough or because its harder for me to shape these dough's I'm losing out on structure?

 

Any ideas would be great!

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Feedback on The Rye Baker

hi all,

I'd really love some feedback on the book. Has any of you baked the breads in the book and if so, how did it go?

Thanks,

Stan

_vk's picture
_vk

hydration and chia question

Hello. 

How should I deal with the water added to chia (or others seeds) and then added to the dough? I thought it would not alter the final hydration as the water should be absorbed by the chia (it's said to absorb 12 times it's mass in water). But the result I'm getting point in the other way.

I've being adding chia, soaked in water, 4 times it's weight, to my 70% hydration white dough. It worked, the dough becomes harder to deal with, but I've being thinking that was only because the jelly chia would make the dough harder anyway.

Now I tried adding the same stuff to my 80% hd (60%WW) dough, and the dough becomes completely slack. I baked it in a tin, and got a good bread from it. But I started to think that the water added together with the chia is counting in total hydration. Is that so? Should I reduce initial water when adding soaked seeds?

Thanks

ps. I only tried chia that has this particular jellification property, so the water, can't be drained. The whole stuff becomes a jelly mass that wouldn't drain. I imagine that other seeds, drained, would behave differently... 

v.

JamieOF's picture
JamieOF

First 1:2:3 Recipe - A Success

Hello all. Past couple of weeks have been busy with RL issues, including a week away from home teaching classes and some family issues. But back in the kitchen now and things are working fairly well.

So, I found the 1:2:3 "recipe" and thought "This is too simple", so yesterday I tried it out of plain curiosity.

Base number was 180 gms of 100% starter (with mostly WAP flour), 360 gms of water and 540 gms of WAP flour (Robin Hood, which states 12% protein).

I will say this was the most comfortable I've felt shaping a boule. That fact is most likely due to a number of factors; the dough, and I'm learning, reading and watching.

I will say I have some experimenting to do with T&T (Temperature & Time), this loaf wasn't as dark as I'd like but internal was 210 Deg F so I yanked it. Still quite pleased with the result though.

Crust was nice and "sang" when I took it out but not as brittle as others I've done. The crumb was quite moist, which surprised me considering it got to 210. It had a nice mild tang to it and was chewy without being doughy.

I just put a loaf on the basket to proof overnight in the fridge that is the same, except for one thing, I bought some vital gluten and added a tbs to see what it does. We'll see tomorrow morning.

Jamie

 

chapstick's picture
chapstick

Experimenting with sour-ness

Last weekend I conducted an experiment to test the theory that a larger quantity of sourdough starter produces a more sour tasting bread. On the face of it, this seems obvious, but I thought I'd read an alternative theory. The alternative theory is that less starter means a slower-proofing dough, which means more time for the sour flavours to develop.

I used Trevor Wilson's low-hydration dough as my basic recipe, using rye flour instead of whole wheat. I doubled the pre-dough ingredients and then divided the pre-dough in half on baking day.

I made two No Muss No Fuss rye starters, one using 3g seed to make 81g starter; the other using 6g seed to make 160g starter.

My NMNF 'mother' starter has been in the fridge for at least a month now, and definitely has been developing its sour taste. This came through on both loaves. My partner and I agreed that the one with the larger amount of starter did have a stronger and more sour taste. However, the difference wasn't huge. Unfortunately, she was the only "blind" tester I had! I suspect others might have been able to detect a slight difference, without being able to identify it as a difference in sour-ness.

I'm still developing my dough handling and shaping skills, which I think explains why one loaf (the one with 160g starter) came out flatter than the other.

crumb - dough with smaller starter

crumb - loaf with more starter

A third loaf I baked the same weekend was a complete pancake!

inumeridiieri's picture
inumeridiieri

Filoni also called francesini

This is a simple bread that I often do. Quick and tasty, I enjoy doing it. I'd like to play a game with you: I put the photos and leave the comment to you, after I say my considerations.

Recipe

Poolish wheat flour W360  200 g

Water 200 g

Fresh yeast 10 g

Wheat flour 400 g

Water 220 g

Salt 13 g

Fresh yeast 10 g

Bulk fermentaion 90 minutes final proof 90 minutes

Very light, soft inside and crispy outside

 

 

Hi forum

Nick Sorenson's picture
Nick Sorenson

What is this Italian "Loaf" risen and baked in? (See Picture).

It looks like this is a loaf almost as if it were risen in a pan but it looks rounded on the bottom and not quite like a pan.

Anyone have a theory here?

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