The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

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Sylviambt's picture

Artisan Bread in five minutes - no oven spring - help

Hi all,

I finally decided to try out recipes from ArtisanBread in 5 Minutes and have been tremendously disappointed. (I routinely make 2-4 loaves/wk from either Hamelman's Techniques or Reinhart's BBA.) Although I follow the directions, I must be doing something wrong because I get no oven spring. How long is everyone else letting loaves rise before baking? Your thoughts would be appreciated.


PaulZ's picture

Best Point to Retard?

Hi all,

When is the best point to retard a dough prep / ferment process in order to stretch the process over 3 days?

If we accept that the regular stages are (Day 1: Night before) PREP LEVAIN/STARTER 12-16HRS>(Day 2:) MIX>BULK FERMENT (with STRETCH & FOLDS)>DIVIDE>REST>SHAPE>FINAL PROOF>BAKE, where is the best point to intervene and place dough in fridge in order to continue the following day, i.e. bake on Day 3? I am inclined, IMHO, to break the process in the final proof stage but when? At the start of the final proof? In the middle and continue the next day? And would the retarding work equally well for both levain bread and sour dough bread? Please help :(



dabrownman's picture

Hanseata’s Wild Rice SD w/ Yeast Water, Multi Seeds, Prunes, Beer and Sprouts

Hanseata’s wild rice bread looked so enticing we had to move it up to the top of the bake list.  To her recipe, which hardly needed any changes at all if one of us was sane and not barking, we used high alcohol ice beer for most of the water and upped the hydration about 10 %.  We didn’t use all beer for the liquid because it had to pass quality control to make sure it was not spoiled in some way.  It actually took two or three tastings just to make sure, but it finally passed.

We also added hemp (since wild rice is a grass), anise, fennel and coriander seeds, as well as, some prunes for their sweetness, cleansing reputation and black color to go with the wild rice.  For the balsamic vinegar we used a pomegranate flavored one.  Last but not really last we added some rye, WW, spelt and barley sprouts to go with the beer.  We also add some molasses and honey to go with the barley malt and some home made red and white non-diastatic and diasatic malts.   Then we moved the salt to 2% or we thought we did after we remembered we forgot to add it.  So, all in all, only a few minor changes were required.

 The batard doubled in the proofing basket coming all the way to the top after it doubled in the fridge overnight too.  The spring in the oven after a slightly deflating diamond cut was also good.  The batard only sprawled 1” in length and ½“ in width after coming out of the basket.

 The crust took on a dark brown color as expected, the bloom was good and was still unexpectedly a little crunch after it cooled.  This is the best slash job we have managed to date.  The crumb was fairly open for so much stuff inside, very moist due to the YW and the texture was just the way we like it. The sprouts, wild rice and seeds gave it an nice nutty, chew and flavor but the hemp seeds were a crunchy contrast and unexpected.  Don’t soak your hemp seeds for this bread!

 One can’t really make out the prunes other than a very slight sweetness throughout.  The anise, coriander and fennel smell and taste were muted, but noticeable, also way we like it.  A medium SD tang was also there and very nice.  Don't know what it would taste like without the beer.  All in all, this is the best looking and tasting bread I have ever been fortunate to make.  It is a delight to eat plain, toasted and buttered.  I’m guessing it will make some kind of special sandwich.   This bread takes 3 days to make but it is worth the waiting.  It is an A+.  Thanks Hanseata for the inspiration.  Formula and method follow the pix's.

This bread made for a nice ham and cheese sandwich for a lazy Saturday lunch with some of favorite lunch sides.


Sprouts - The first thing to get started are the spouts.  Soak the seeds for 5 hours and them sprout between - damp paper towels covered in plastic wrap. Reserve unti;l needed about 24 hours.

Starter - Then get the combination YW and SD starter going in (3) 4 hour builds totaling 12 hours.  It should double after the 3rd build between the 8 and 12 hour marks.  Refrigerate overnight.  This bread can be made with SD starter alone just double the amount of starter.

Autolyse - Take all the flour and add all the beer and water, less 25 g of the water, add the malts, honey, balsamic vinegar, molasses and the VWG mix well and refrigerate for 24 hours.

Cook - the wild rice on low for 1 hour in at least twice as much as water as rice.  Reserve the cooked rice in the refrigerator.

Reconstitute the chopped prunes in 1 T of hot water and grind the seeds slightly in a mortar.

Then next morning combine the autolyse, the reserved 25 g of water and starter in the mixing bowl and knead with the dough hook on KA 2 for 5 minutes.  Add the salt (donlt forget like I did) and knead on KA 3 for 3 minutes.  Knead an additional 2 minutes on KA 4 for 2 minutes.  Move dough to a well oiled, plastic covered bowl to rest for 15 minutes.

Do 6 sets of S&F’s every 15 minutes on a floured work surface putting the dough back into the oiled covered bowl each time.  On the 5th S&F add in the sprouts, seeds, prunes and cooked wild rice.   After the 6th S&F form dough into a tight ball, place into a oiled bowl, cover with plastic and let rest on the counter for 1 hour.  Retard  the dough in the refrigerator overnight.

In the morning remove the dough from the fridge and let come to room temperature – about 1 hour.  Form into the shape you desire and let proof on the counter for 2- 3 hours in a plastic bag, or until it passes the poke test.  Mine took 3 hours total out of the fridge I formed the dough into one large 17” x 6” batard.

45 minutes before the dough is ready, preheat the oven to 500 F regular with steaming method and stone in place.  Bake the bread for 15 minutes with steam, the first 4 minutes at 500 F,  then 11 minutes at 450 F regular bake and then for another 20 minutes at 400 F convection until internal temperature reaches 205 F.  Rotate the bread every 5 minutes 90 degrees.   Leave door ajar with the oven off and the bread on the stone for 12 minutes to let the crust crisp.  Move to wire rack to cool to room temperature.

Wild Rice Multi-grain with YW and SD Starters, Sprouts and Hemp Seeds      
Mixed StarterBuild 1Build 2 Build 3Total%
SD Starter251010456.50%
Yeast Water3020106014.58%
Rye / Dark Rye - 5040205011022.92%
Water5020 7014.58%
Total Starter185909036576.04%
Levain % of Total24.87%    
Dough Flour %   
6 Grain Cereal102.08%   
White WW10020.83%   
Potato Flakes102.08%   
Dark Rye204.17%   
Dough Flour480100.00%   
Beer - 353 Water-6742087.50%   
Dough Hydration87.50%0.00%   
Total Flour692.5    
Total Beer / Water582.5    
T. Dough Hydrat.84.12%    
Hydration w/ Adds84.90%    
Total Weight1,508    
Multigrain Sprouts %   
Cooked - Wild Rice - Dry Weight234.79%   
Total Sprouts7315.21%   
Add - Ins %   
VW Gluten153.13%   
Hemp -20, anise, coriand, fennel - 6265.42%   
Re-hydrated Dried Prunes357.29%   
Red Rye Malt51.04%   
White Rye Malt51.04%   
Balsamic Vinegar193.96%   
B. Malt / Molasses306.25%   
Szanter5339's picture

Cake baked in a family child day to day.

2 dl warm milk
3 tablespoons sugar
1 teaspoon salt
50 g butter, softened
2 egg yolks
100 g of yogurt
600 g flour
20 g yeast
+ 1 egg for lubrication
Szanter5339's picture

Nagyon tetszik nekem ez a kenyér

swtgran's picture

old cookbooks 

This site has some great old cookbooks with really old ways of making bread in them, for those of you that might be interested in those kinds of things.  Terry R..

isand66's picture

Whole Wheat Desem with Quinoa, Barley Flour and Toasted Onions

Now that I finally made the famous Phil's 100% Whole Wheat Desem bread I figured it was time to push the envelope and put my own twist on it.  I love onions so I added some toasted onions and figured I would try to mix up the flour a bit by adding a small percentage of Quinoa and Barley flour.  Both of these flours impart a nice nutty flavor to the dough along with the toasted wheat germ I also added.  I also added some dehydrated onions since I ran out of the toasted onions and wanted to make sure I used enough in the recipe.  Just for the hell of it I added some pistachio oil to make it even more nutty tasting.

I refreshed my whole wheat starter I built for the last bake of 100% Whole Wheat Desem bread and the next day away we went with mixing the final dough.

Please see Phil's original recipe for his  formula for 100% Whole Wheat and his original procedures here


243 grams (refreshed) Desem Starter

650 grams Whole Wheat (KAF 100% Organic)

130 grams Quinoa Flour

119 grams Barley Flour

20 grams Roasted Wheat Germ

838 grams Water (90 degrees F.)

20 grams Sea Salt (or table salt)

11 grams Toasted Onions

4 grams Dehydrated Onions (I ran out of the toasted so used this instead)

11 grams Pistachio Oil (you can omit if desired or use any nut oil or olive oil)


Like the last bake I decided to change his procedures by using my Bosche Mixer as follows:

I mixed  the flours and wheat germ together with all the water except for 50 grams and let them autolyes for 1 hour.  I added the dried toasted onions to the remaining 50 grams of water.  After an hour  I added the levain and the water with onions, pistachio oil and salt and mixed on speed #1 for 1 minute and #2 for 4 minutes.  I then did a stretch and fold, rested the dough uncovered for 10 minutes.  I then did another stretch and fold, covered the dough and let it rest for 10 minutes.  I did one more stretch and fold and put it in a lightly oiled bowl for 1.5 hours.  I then put it in the fridge overnight.

The next day I let the dough sit out at room temperature for 1.5 hours.  After 1.5 hours I formed it into loaves and put them in floured bannetons and let them rise covered for 2 hours.  Score the loaves as desired and prepare your oven for baking with steam.

I then baked on my oven stone with steam at 450 degrees until both loaves were golden brown and reached an internal temperature of 200 - 210 degrees F.

The bread had a great nutty flavor and you can taste the barley and quinoa flours for sure along with the onions.  The crumb was nice and moist and open with a nice dark medium hard crust.

Szanter5339's picture

Legyezős mákos.

dmsnyder's picture

Phil's Desem & SFBI Miches 5/18/12

This was my second bake of Phil's (PiPs) Desem. His beautiful blog entry on this bread can be viewed here: Honest bread - 100% whole-wheat desem bread and some country bread. As with my first bake, I modified Phil's procedure somewhat, using CM fine ground organic whole wheat flour rather than fresh-ground white WW flour and machine mixing. While I baked directly on a stone last time, today I baked in Lodge 4 qt. Cast Iron Dutch ovens.

Desem crust close-up

The general appearence of the loaves was pretty much the same between the two baking methods. I understand that Phil is contending with the special challenges of a gas oven, but, for me, baking on the stone directly is easier than wrangling hot and heavy DO's. 

Desem crumb profile

Desem crumb close-up

I cut the desem loaves 3-4 hours after baking. The crumb structure was very satisfactory, but it was somewhat gummy. Hansjoakim (see below) raised an excellent question: Would the desem benefit from a 24-36 hour rest before slicing, like a high-percentage rye does? I wonder.

The flavor of the desem, tasted when first sliced was very assertive - sweet whole wheat with a moderate sour tang. The sourness had decreased the next morning when I had it toasted for breakfast. It was very nice with butter and apricot jam.

I also baked a couple 1 kg loaves using the SFBI Miche formula. (See Miche from SFBI Artisan II - 2 kg) I altered the flour mix. The final dough was made using half KAF AP and half CM Organic Type-85  flour.

We had some of this bread with dinner. The crust was crunchy and the crumb was soft but chewy. The flavor was complex - sweet, wheaty and mildly sour. I have made this bread using the original SFBI formula, with all CM Type-85 flour and with the mix I used today. I'd be hard pressed to say which I prefer. They have all been delicious.

I'm happy with today's bakes.


JoeV's picture

May 18, 2012 bread baking

Restocking the freezer with some Italian bread and Italian & honey whole wheat sandwich thins. Also made some Italian Epi baguettes topped with sesame seeds, poppy seeds, sweet onion chips, garlic powder and Spanish paprika...just for the fun of it. Wow, are they tasty!