The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

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Bob S.'s picture
Bob S.

100% White Whole Wheat Sandwich Loaf (remix method)

This bread was mixed in a KitchenAid "Ultra Power" stand mixer, instead of the K5SS equipped with a spiral hook (my preferred mixer). In addition, the absorption was low, making mixing difficult. Even so, after about 12 minutes of re-mixing at fairly high speed, the dough began to soften. Dough temperature dropped from 81° F to 79° F (probably due to convection cooling). The motor housing surface temperature had reached 102° F, which convinced me that it was a good time to cease re-mixing. It took 90 minutes for the loaf to rise to the proper height for baking.

In spite of the difficulties, the final loaf was acceptable. Although a spiral hook does a better job of re-mixing, the "C" hook used by the KSM-90 Ultra-Power was able to accomplish the job.

FrenchNyonya's picture

This is how the french make their Pastis or "apple strudle"!!

Saw this video and thought i must share.. first time i see how a dough can be strech to cover the entire table!!

Happy Baking!


yozzause's picture

visit of near neighbours

Last year i had permission to hold a promotional class consisting of colleagues family and friends with the idea that fellow TFL member Ross (ROSS-N-ROLLER) would come along and do an article that we could submit to the local paper  prior to a November date for a class on Sour Dough.

Ross and his partner Janice  came along and we had a great evening together.

Ross's article follows 

                                                       Bred to Bake

i recently attended one of Derek Hughes' sourdough bread baking classes at Beaconsfield Challenger Institutes campus. There were 12 attendees in all, most with no bread-making experience. as a home baker of sourdough bread myself,i was struck by the depth of Derek's knowledge and his deft dough handling and shaping skills He was a pro baker for many years,and it shows .He even looks like a baker (see pic)

While Derek's retail bakery days are behind him,he has never stopped baking,enthusiastically passing on his knowledge to Hospitality students at the Institute, in between working on campus as a Supply Officer. He brings this same impassioned approach to his bread baking classes-It's infectious!

The classes take place over 3.5  jam-packed hours. Derek led us through sourdough breadmaking process:weighing and mixing the ingredients:stretching and folding the dough during fermentation;shaping and baking.

There is plenty of opportunity to get down and doughy,with Derek overseeing as mentor-and just as well,in the case of some devilishly naughty but easy to mangle cinnamon scrolls!

The highlight is the sampling the wares,which included a delicious black sesame seed sourdough Pre prepared by Derek  and baked during the class.

We were all given a dozen cinnamon scrolls to take home as well a dough fermented and shaped in class to be baked next day. This  night it was a delicious wholemeal sourdough featuring Derek,s home brew stout recipes are included.

a fun night well run,and outstanding value. ROSS ---------------------------------------------------

As the article didn't get a run in the local paper we had to cancel the proposed date, it was not long after this that i received an email from fellow TFL member Betsy Teo asking if i knew of any one that gave sourdough lessons as she would be visiting Perth and had hoped to book into a class with Yoke Mardewi of Wild Sourdough fame  who lives in Perth but alas was not holding any classes at that time. I said to her it was a pity as i was due to run a class but had to cancel due to no publicity.

Anyway i was able to gain permission to run another freeby for staff colleagues and friends and over seas visitor so emailed the details and to contact me when she got to Perth, which she duly did. i gave the details of where and when. and how to get there.

What follows is an account from Penelope, Betsy's daughter who accompanied her on this trip.    

Over the hill

Now that phrase can be rather misleading.

And this is something i had come to learn last November 2013 as i made my way by foot from the junction of South Tce and Sth St where the free blue cat bus service  had let me off (bus stand7) towards Challenger Institute of Technology.

Stopping every 500 metres or so , i was greeted with the same response ,"over the hill. to your right across the oval"

Well, what would have been helpful was if i had been told  that its a BIG hill - somehow the art of describing how strenuous and challenging the different hills one has to encounter on foot is something only the residents of San Francisco has it refined to the 'T'.

What's interesting is my mother has over the course of 5 years or so been trying to make the perfect San Francisco sourdough bread.

Having left the 'brick' stage some time back with the help of online forums,countless of hours spent on You Tube videos, and many.many guinea pigs  who has been or lived in San Francisco as testers the phase of inconsistent results of 'blisters','open crumbs' and 'ears '  continues to haunt her.

This resulted  first with amassing a collection of sourdough or levain publications  by the who's who  of baking, followed by stalking  self proclaimed  local artisan bakers, to eventually combing farmers markets of Europe and begging strange Swiss, Italian and French men covered in powdery white substances to Pilates professional moonlighting as organic artisan bakers for private lessons.

Almost giving up hope , a lovely Australian man  - Derek- responded to her email queries, agreeing to provide her with some lessons one fine day.

the respond was timely with a last minute  visit i had planned for  after receiving news of an old family friend who was terminally ill in Perth.

Needless to say our laborious hike up Sth Street was well worth the visit and the very fact that we  had travelled all the way from Kuala Lumpur gave us not only automatic access to the Challenger Institute of Technology premises after hours but an escorted  tour around by security personnel on duty.

Derek on first impression was unassuming  and friendly . While waiting  for the rest of the 'friends and family who would be joining the baking session that evening, i went about taking the roots off the spring onions  that were to be used latter, while he went about answering my mothers 'technical questions'

Betsy and Derek  

  With the party ensemble at the agreed upon time ,class started with Derk explaining the lesson  plan for the night and put a batch of flour , sourdough starter and other base ingredients  for a white bread with turmeric Haloumi cheese and spring onion sourdough: one of 3 breads that we would  make that evening into a larger mixing bowl.

Michael one of Challengers'  chefs adding cheese and spring onions into the last few folds

the dough pieces scaled off below


As the dough was getting a good work out in the industrial sized mixer , Derek  produced loaves  of risen 50%wholemeal  with Home brewed stout  and torrified wheat that he had made the previous day and went about describing the technique of slashing . Once we had all had our rounds of slashing 2 or 3 loaves each Derek went about preparing the loaves with a glaze before baking them.

Michael  the Hospitality Technician  prepares the loaves for washing slashing ready for the oven.


adri's picture

Adrian's rustic whole rye bread with some spelt

I just got a new baking stone.

Putting the dough with the folded side down in the banneton and with late but vigorous steaming gives a nice rustic optic:

It is whole rye + 13% whole spelt with 78% hydration.
1370g dough weight; 1163g (2.6 pounds) bread weight.

I built the leaven in 2 steps (very low hydration and cold overnight; very high hydration and warm in the morning); no yeast added. Is anyone interested in the recipe?

Greetings from Austria

suzisweet's picture

Please help with sweet bread issue at my bakery!!

Good day all!

I have a very small town bakery. We have been open for just 5 short weeks. Things have been going well if you do not include lack of sleep and family time!! 

Seeing as I and one other person do all of the making and baking; we have tried hard to come up with ways to save time and produce more. Things aren't bad there either with one familys' prized recipe and creation called the "Birdie Bun". (Picture is a mini version of our bun.) It is a sweet yeast dough that is allowed to rise, then is shaped into a bird, proofed, egg washed and baked. We also use the same dough for a handful of other items....sticky buns, cinnamon rolls and our very well selling tomato rolls. 

Here lies the problem....

In trying to trim time we make a weeks worth of dough for all products. We portion and wrap and let the first rise occur in walk in fridge on racks. The next day we shape items and birdie buns. We then freeze them immediately, well wrapped I might add. We then take them out as needed, leave in fridge over night to thaw and proof in our proofer for 30-45 minutes. We have had success on all of our items made this way with the exception of the birdie bun. They seem to be forming a skin that allows for very little rise in the proofer and when egg washed and baked they have now been covered with tiny little wart like bubbles....they look hideous! BUT the worst is that they are no longer soft and feathery inside and they have even seemed to loose some of their sweetness. I must fix this problem ASAP. We thought maybe a quick freeze, then spray with water so that they get a coating of ice on them then put back in the freezer. Once into the fridge the ice melts and they stay moist. Any thoughts on this? We have not yet had the time to test this but any suggestions will be very much appreciated!! I do not want to loose our following on this roll! We make some of our breakfast and lunch sandwiches on them and lately (probably because of what they look like) people have been choosing to have their sandwiches on bagels and croissants instead!!! UGH!! PLEASE any help....any!!! Maybe a spray of oil?????

namadeus's picture

Deflated Loaf

Hi - I do not often bake yeasted bread but last night made a small white loaf with unbleached white flour. Ingredients 500gms U/B White Strong flour / 330gms water / 8 gms fresh teast / 8 gms salt.

Mixed and kneaded for approx 12 minutes then into bowl to rest. Rested for 1hr 20 mins (double in size plus a bit) and then into small loaf tin. Allowed to prove for 1 hr and 10 mins until double.

Then cut top with razor just before going into the oven. The loaf sank slightly and never produced any oven spring !


Any thoughts on problem would be appreciated.


Thanks and regards

Littlebrooklyn's picture

Hello from London

I'm new to the forum although I have been reading the posts on it for a little while.  

I am really enjoying baking cakes, bread and also making soup, but I find bread the most satisfying and sometimes the most confusing too.

I am not a very experienced bread maker and only started a few months ago with one of those bread mixes you buy in the supermarket.  As that turned out so well I decided to make my own bread from scratch and haven't bought any bread from the shops since October.

Mainly I bake plain white bread but I have also tried wholemeal, granary, spelt and rye.  In fact I made my first sodabread with rye flour yesterday and it was my first real disaster as I followed the recipe on the packet which was just for rye flour, milk, bicarbonate of soda, cream of tartar and oil.  There were no instructions to knead the bread, just to mix it, shape it, leave it for 45 mins, then bake it.  My other half said it looked more like a small bread roll than a loaf of bread and I think he was right!

Hoping I will get some ideas and inspiration on this forum and look forward to trying out some new recipes too.


aguats's picture

Kürbiskernbrot -- Pumpkin seed bread, 100% whole grain sourdough

I lived for a few years in Austria, including one year in the south where pumpkin seeds are especially loved and are frequently incorporated into deliciously moist, soft, airy loaves. This is my favorite rendition of that bread. I use an organic pumpkin seed oil (made from Styrian seeds) that I buy from a health food store here in California. I love the flavor the oil imparts, but be warned that it does give the bread a bit of a green color. I don't mind that at all, and try to balance the green with some yellow corn flour that I bring out with a gentle bake. The photo below was taken with some daylight and pretty accurately represents the color of the crust.

The loaf is composed of soaked wholegrain spelt and corn flour with a rye starter. I soak the spelt and fine corn flour overnight with salt and then mix the soaker, starter and pumpkin seed oil for the initial fermentation. After some folds I incorporate the pumpkin seeds and put in a greased pan to proof.

The pan is baked with a lid on to give it a good steam. Here's a shot of the moist, fluffy crumb:

My daughter loves it in the evening with some butter and honey. Guten Appetit!

WoodenSpoon's picture

Corn Grit Sourdough

Formula: 615g bread flour, 35g whole rye flour, 460g warm water, 110g chef (100% hydration), 141g coarse ground cornmeal (thats the dry weight), and 13g salt.

Yesterday afternoon I boiled some water and added it to the 141g cornmeal, I continued adding water until all the corn was hydrated, added just a touch more and let it sit for two hours. Next I weighed out my flours and whisked em together, weighed out my salt and set it aside, weighed out and combined my chef and warm water then added the water/chef mixture to the flour grits. I gently mixed with a bowl scraper then with a spoon and once the dough came together I let it autolyse covered in the bowl for an hour.

After the autolyse, I gave it a gentle set of slap and folds and let it rest, after 3 or 5 minutes I spread the salt out on the counter and gave the dough six minutes of slapping and folding on top of the salt so it pulled a little up at a time. After those six minutes I let it rest for 5 or so minutes and gave it anther 3 minute set of slap and folds. After another short rest I gave it another very short set of slap and folds (1 minute or so) a stretch and fold then put it in a clean bowl and let it ferment at room temp for an hour or so. During this room temp fermentation I gave the dough 3 sets of stretch and folds in the bowl, first after the 20 minutes and the second after forty and the third around the hour mark. then I covered the bowl and popped it in the fridge. An hour later I gave it another gentle stretch and fold then another a few hours later.

This morning I removed the dough from the fridge and let it sit at room temp for two or so hours, scaled/preshaped/shaped and proofed for around 3 hours,

Getting on baking time I preheated my oven, stone and sheet pan to 550. then I presteamed the oven with an ounce or so of hot water on the sheet pan, scored and slid the loaf in, gave it another small steam, about a minute later I gave it another small steam waited a minute and turned the oven down to 470. after around 10 minutes I turned it down to 460, after another ten or so I turned it to 450 for the remainder of the bake.

I am extremely happy with how this bread came out, Its got that overnight bulk ferment tang blended wonderfully with the sweetness of the corn and the barely perceptible (maybe placebo) earthiness of of the rye

sawyerc's picture

Poor volume with natural levain version of 36hr baguette from Txframer

I have great result with commercial yeast 36hr version 


( I may need to proof longer as the hole tend to be vertical in steads of in a round shape?)

But I cant get as opened as above with the sourdough version, volume is much lower

I feel the dough is more "tight" right after mixing ( probably due to the acid )

The bulk fermentation take much longer ,but my dough never triple in volume(where the stage I end my bulk fermentation in commercial  yeast version) even a 4-24-2hr of bulk fermentation. 

When I  shape it into a baguette, it is not extendable enough. I have to roll it with some force.

even they look similar before putting into the oven. The sourdough version's one dont have a large oven spring and the volume suffer a lot.

I have used my starter to make tartine bread with no oven spring problem

1. Am I overproof the dough?

2. the starter too acidic / not having enough yeast? should I use younger starter? but I doubt young starter dont have enough yeast cell too and the LAB still win over yeast in the long bulk fermentation period.

3.Should I not S&F at all? The dough is so tight and it can pass the window plate test right after mixing. But I heard less S&F may lead to less volume?

4. Should I look for different "feel" of each stages for the sourdough version? 

5. I heard sourdough bread have slower oven spring. Should I need to lower the oven temp to prolong the oven spring?  but my oven cant trap the steam that long anyway..

6.other factors I neglected?

PS. the breads from sourdough version is more  sticky to my teeth . Is this caused by the acid too?

Sorry for grammatical mistakes, non-native but too lazy too proof-read. Too busy trying and trying this recipe over and over. 

Thank you for reading this messy thread