The Fresh Loaf

A Community of Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts.

Most bookmarked

hopnoggin's picture
hopnoggin

steam

I am using a crude but effective method for producing steam during the first phase of baking sourdough. The steam is enough to fog my glasses when opening the oven door, so it seems adequate and I get pretty impressive spring in the loaves. But it made me wonder if I am producing enough steam to leave off the cover of the Dutch oven during first twenty minutes? How does steam penetrate a Dutch oven with the lid on? Seems to me like it doesn't. Do any of you bake sourdough in a Dutch oven without the cover?

 

DanAyo's picture
DanAyo

How does Oil and Honey affect Hydration

Today, I baked a new formula. I thought the dough would be too wet considering the hydration, including the milk, oil, and honey came to 72.5%. But the dough was very dry, actually IMO too much so. It felt like ~62-65%.

How do the following affect hydration?
   - NOTE - since hydration technically pertains to water content, I am more interested in how the actual dough feels. For example oil, it is 100% fat, but it does affect the “feel” of the dough. 

  1. milk 65%
  2. oil 5%
  3. honey 2.5%

Total Formula

  • 260 g 1% Milk* 65%
  • 6 g Instant Dry Yeast (about 1 packet) 1.5%
  • 8 g Diastatic Malt powder (optional) 2%
  • 400 g Bread Flour (all-purpose works too) 100%
  • 10 g Honey (or sugar) 2.5%
  • 20 g Olive Oil 5%
  • 8 g Salt 2%
SueVT's picture
SueVT

Camp Chef 14" Deluxe for 2 kg Miche, and Red Hen comparison

In my quest to make a perfect, consistent, large miche (~2kg), I have made a slow transition from partially yeasted to my current formula, which is sourdough only, 80% hydration. I'm learning that different flours behave very differently, and many of my experiments have resulted in mud, pancake-flat loaves, giant air chambers, flying saucers etc. 

I have a good formula; no question about it. Problems arise from things like shaping technique, insufficient folding, excess hydration for a specific flour, and a biggie: insufficient steam while baking. I've found that even if I do everything else right, lack of steam defeats me, sometimes turning the miche into a basketball, or a strained sofa-cushion shape. 

I just bought the Camp Chef 14" Deluxe Dutch oven, after many attempts with baking stones and steam pans, inverted hotel pan, Le Creuset, clay bakers etc.  Nothing gave me the results I was looking for.  This inexpensive dutch oven had two qualities that make it uniquely suited to my needs: it has a lid which is designed to be a frying pan surface, so it has a raised edge and flat interior. My largest banetton can be flipped into this lid with room to expand. Second, it has a relatively deep pot, which provides enough room for the expanding miche plus steam all around it.

I preheated the dutch oven for about 40 minutes at 450F. Handling with heat-resistant silicon-covered gloves, I put the base on the stove top, inverted the miche onto a peel, then slid it into the frying-pan-lid. Quicky slashed, covered (carefully) with the inverted hot dutch oven base, then back in the oven to cook for 20. Then removed the inverted base and baked for another 30 minutes.

Contrary to my usual practice I left the oven on Convection. My reasoning was that air can't get into the dutch oven, but the convection would heat the iron all over more effectively. This worked out well. I should mention that I put a flat baking sheet under the DO so that it could sit on the oven rack properly. This also helped prevent over-baking the bottom crust.

I got very good oven spring, similar to what I get with a 2 lb loaf in a clay baker or le creuset. Blistering, indicating steam, good secondary expansion in the slashes. Very caramelized crust due to keeping the convection on for the entire baking cycle. 

I am happy with the openings, I think they are good for a 45% whole wheat loaf at 80%. I compared to a Red Hen miche, which I consider to be excellent, and they are very very similar, except my loaf is twice as big. I've included a photo that shows side-by-side comparison with a Red Hen Vermont Miche. Difference in color and ingredient list indicates that they use less  ww flour %, and also lower hydration than my loaf.  

The ww flour I am using (Bronze Chief) is outstanding IMHO.

 

 

 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

20210428 + 0601 Stan's (100% whole-grain) Chleb Mieszany with CLAS

  •  To learn more about concentrated lactic acid sourdough (CLAS), please see here and here

 

Ingredients (pre-warmed and maintained at 30-32C/86-89.6F throughout the process):

 

50% freshly ground, unsifted whole wheat (All the whole rye/wheat flours I bought are rancid.)

42% freshly ground, unsifted whole rye

8% whole rye CLAS

 

30% + 9% water

50% home-made yogurt, full fat

8% honey (recipe calls for 1.3% sugar)

2% salt (recipe calls for 1.3%)

0.3% instant yeast (recipe calls for 1%)

sunflower seeds as needed

 

I decided to change the sweetener to honey and increased its amount to 8%.

 

Still using my Vitamix to grind the flours since I am not ready to play with my new toys yet. 

 

whole wheat

whole rye

 

I autolyzed the whole wheat flour with yogurt; gluten was quite well-developed after ~2 hours. 

 

 

I added some rye flour to the wheat-yogurt mixture and mixed them in my Zojirushi bread machine for ~10 minutes to strengthen the gluten. Then I added all the remaining ingredients and mixed for another 10 minutes, and added more water during the mix until the dough couldn't take in any more. The dough looked like this when mixing was complete:

 

 

Bulk: 30-32C/86-89.6F x 150 mins 

I halved the recipe to 523g total dough weight, which fits perfectly in a 8x3x3 pan. 

 

 

Proof: 32C/89.6F x 60mins

 

 

My bread machine "hack". 

 

 

Baked in my Zo x 70mins, dark crust. 

 

 

Baked loaf. 

 

 

 

Crumb shot (click to enlarge). 

 

 

 P.S. 20210601

Since my family likes this bread, I want to share it with my friends, too.  This time I pre-fermented 100% of the flour and increased the amount of CLAS to 10%.  The bread turned out even more flavorful and was slightly tangy. If time permits, I think I will continue to make a pre-dough in the future. I made this bread with a 9x4x4 tin, so the slices are standard size.  I used organic white hard wheat berries to grind flour for one of the loaves because I ran out of red berries.  

 

I kept the loaf that was made with white whole wheat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent this loaf (made with hard red wheat) to my friend with kumquat and homemade marmalade.

 

 

 

Harvesting kumquat makes me happy!

 

rb's picture
rb

After relocation, starter/levains behavior changed. Why isn't my levain rising-to-double anymore?

I've maintained a german-style starter -- 100% pumpernickel-only fed, 100% hydration -- for years now.

It's been a fine performer for me for all my bakes.

I recently relocated -- US West -> East coast -- and 'everything' changed.

Using same recipes as always, I wasn't able to get a decent rise out of a loaf at all, over-dense crumbs, etc etc.

I started decomposing the 'parts' of the process.

I noted that my starter -- reconstitued from cracker across the relocation -- had stopped peaking in any reasonable time; taking 18+ hours to dome ...

Realizing that cultures were different 'here', and guessing that my starter may be starved of local/active critters, I started by re-selecting my starter cultures.

It's now re-trained for 4-hour peaks.

It's reliably fully-domed, and ~ doubled, at 4 - 4.5 hours at ~78 degs.

Moving on to building flour-conversion levains, with my usual builds 1:7:7, my levains _used_ to double in ~ 12 hours.

I'm staring at one now, after 18hours, ~30% rise at best.
It's still somewhat active, though not seeing bubbles rise "in real time" to be sure.

1st question -- what could possibly be retarding my levain growth?

idosynkratic's picture
idosynkratic

Absolutely baffled! Bread mystery! Please help! Update:mystery solved

Update: Thanks for all your input and help. Next bake was a huge success. The problem I think was a combination things. But seems like biggest culprit was over hydration, and underfermentation. And perhaps not the world's happiest starter. 

So I fed my starter at a lower ratio 3 times a day until it was really cooperating, decreased hydration to 72%, did a mix of medium and medium-high white flour (11% & 12% protein), only 10% whole wheat flour. Skipped autolyse and did a long bulk (6 hours at about 21°C. Way better. So much more delicious! Thanks for all your advice! 

 

 

Hi! I need some serious help. I have been baking every day for the last month and something is going very wrong and I cannot for the life of me figure it out. Apologies for long post I am desperate.

OK. So I've had real success in the past using the same flours, oven and techniques. However for some reason every loaf of the last month has turned out almost exactly the same, regardless of which parameters I change. They spread out in the oven, don't hold their shape and don't grow much. Splitting rather than growing at the scoring site.

I have varied my wholewheat percentage from 0% to 40% and most things in between. The white flour I use is 12% protein. Hydration has varied from 73% to 84%. Results are always the same. Collapse. I usually retard overnight in my cold fridge which doesn't get above 4°C. But I have also tried baking straight after an hour or 2 hours proving. The same.

I inoculate with 20% levain. I bulk ferment for about 3.5-4 hours if the dough is 25-26°C. I go for more like 5 or 6 hours if it's as low as 21°C. I see some volume increase and good signs of fermentation. I shape tightly and the dough usually feels and looks beautiful after shaping. But, as soon as I score it I can tell it won't do well in the oven.

I thought it might be my starter being too acidic? But, I changed to regular feeding 2-3 times a day, changing the container each time, only feeding just as it was peaking. And I only add the levain to the dough just as it is peaking and still strong not liquid. And it doesn't smell especially sour and it grows well.

I autolyse for between 1-2 hours for white flour and 2-5 hours for whole wheat flours.

I bake in a dutch oven.

I was concerned I wasn't developing enough of a gluten network? I had had success before with just slap and folds, then stretch and folds every half hour, between 3 -6 times depending on feel. Ideally none for the last hour or 2 of bulk. I tried doing bench kneading, then lamination, then coil folds. That didn't work. The same collapse result.So then I went back to a minimal approach of just some slap and folds and a few stretch and folds.

The dough is strong at the start of bulk and after a slaps or stretch and folds or coil folds, but it seems to lose strength as bulk progresses, even though it increases in volume. But it doesn't always seem to lose strength during bulk. But I think I shape pretty well? Nice and tight but not too tight. Sometimes I do preshape sometimes I don't. But the result is always the same. Ok. Sorry for long post. Here are some photos. Please any advice you have would be amazing.

 

This is an example of a good loaf I made that was 40% whole wheat and 77.5% hydration: I have no idea why this one turned out great. It was a month ago and everything else since has been terrible:

 

Wake-N-Bake's picture
Wake-N-Bake

Advice needed for a better crumb

For some time I've been trying to bake breads with a bit higher hydration and a more open crumb. Each attempt I did that was over 68% hydration (20% whole wheat) failed miserably (flat breads). Then finally I realised my flour might not be up to it. I was using a bread flour that had about 11,5% of protein. So then I bought another type of flour that had 13,5% of protein. I made a nice 80% hydrated yeasted ciabatta in advance so I know it can handle this amount of water.

After this, I baked two batches of three breads, a week apart from eachother. Below you can find the recipe (same for both batches) and the schedules I followed. I'm unsure if I'm under or overproofing. I'm guessing though I'm underproofing but would like to hear all of your thoughts.

In the second batch, I bulk proofed longer than in the first batch just to see what would happen. When pre-shaping the second batch I noticed where the dough was cut, it looked glossy and was very sticky. I thought I had over fermented. The final result isn't too bad though and it's certainly edible but the crumb wasn't what I'm aiming for. I'd really appreciate insights on how to improve this.

One of my theories is, that my 100% hydration, 100% whole wheat starter is fine (doubles in less than 6hrs and doesn't smell acidic) and my schedule/handling is quite ok (though timing the proof can be better) but that the room temperature is too low (around 69°F or less) to give an optimal rise to this relatively white dough (80% breadflour, 20% wholegrain). The 100% whole wheat starter and 100% wholewheat levain (pre-ferment) have a lot of nutrients for the yeast to thrive, even at a lower ambient temperature or so it seems. Then when I add the levain to my autolyse to make the main dough, the yeast cannot grow at the same rate anymore because the white flour contains less nutrients (and also because of the lower hydration in the final dough). So what I'm wondering is, could it be possible because of the lower ambient temperature the lactic acid bacteria are catching up with the yeast and taking over before the dough is fully proofed and puffed up? This would explain the glossy look of the dough after cutting it, the lactic acid impeding the growth of yeast and preventing a better crumb.

In despair I was looking into a bread proofer online, wondering if it was the only solution to this situation. A higher ambient temperature would boost the yeast's CO2 production, giving the lactic acid bacteria less time to acidify the dough and deteriorate the gluten. Does that sound right? Is it even possible to get such an open crumb at these lower range proofing temperatures?

I've tried placing my dough in the oven at 30°C during bulk before, but this didn't work. After measuring I noticed the actual temperature in my oven was 40°C (which is too high of course) and I cannot configure a lower temperature on that oven. Also I cannot find a warmer place in my house for the dough. The fridge and freezer are built in to a cabinet so I cannot place it on top for some added heat. Any advice is much appreciated! So here's the recipe and schedules, together with some pictures.

Recipe:

20% whole wheat 75% hydration (500g/loaf)

Levain: 214g (25% of weight of total flour)

Water: 536g

Wheat flour (13,5% of protein): 686g

Whole wheat: 64g

Salt: 17g (2% of weight of total flour)

 

Schedule batch 1:

I took my 100% whole wheat, 100% hydration starter out of the fridge and fed it equal parts starter, water and whole wheat flour (1:1:1) at the following times:

Friday 9AM

Friday 9PM

Saturday 9AM

Saturday 3PM

Saturday 9PM (I intended to feed 1:2:2 so it would peak later, but forgot and did a 1:1:1 feeding instead)

 

Then on Sunday:

8AM: made the levain (pre-ferment) from 71g of my starter (which didn't smell acidic and doubled in volume), 71g of water and 71g of whole wheat (1:1:1)

11AM: prepared the autolyse from the remaining water, flour, whole wheat and salt

1:45PM: the levain has more than doubled in size so I incorporated it in the autolyse. Bulk proof starts here. The ambient temperature is around 21,9°C (71F) which is quite warm for my kitchen.

2:45PM: did some strong stretch&folds in the mixing bowl

3:30PM: lamination (stretching the dough thinly over the kitchen counter). I left the dough lying there for about 5 minutes before picking it up to create additional dough strength. I saw this technique in this video on high hydration Roman pizza dough. In the second batch I try to determine how much water evaporates by doing this. Then transferred the dough to a rectangular pyrex dish which I cover with a plastic box turned upside down (to prevent drying out the dough)

4:20PM: coil folds

5PM: coil folds (large bubbles appeared on top of the dough, dough was starting to feel airy)

5:40PM: coil folds

6:20PM: coil folds

7PM: pre-shape. Divided the dough in three parts without weighing them (to minimize handling the dough to prevent escape of gasses) and carefully made circular shapes by gently folding the outsides of the dough to the inside

7:30PM: final shape. I flip the dough upside down, fold left and right side to the middle and roll-up the dough from top to bottom. Then transferred to bannetons. One of the three doughs went immediately to the fridge for a cold retard. The other two I keep in my oven (turned off) for a final proof.

8:35PM: second dough goes to fridge

9:15PM: third dough goes to fridge

 

On Monday at 7:30PM I start baking these. I don't have a Dutch oven but use a 'tajine' which has a cast iron bottom and a ceramic lid. Unfortunately it has a small hole on the top where steam can escape but surprisingly it still works well. The highest my oven will go is 225°C (437F) and that's where I bake at (fan always off) for 20 minutes in the tajine with the lid on. Then I remove the lid and continue to bake at 200°C (392F) for another 15 minutes with only the bottom heating element from the oven turned on. The inner dimensions of my oven are quite small and when I do use the top heating element without the tajine lid, the crust get thick really quick because of the heating element being close.

Although the loaves had different proofing times, the crumb of each was quite similar. I didn't take pictures of each.

Here's the pictures:

Schedule batch 2:

I took my 100% whole wheat, 100% hydration starter out of the fridge and fed it starter, water and whole wheat flour as follows:

Friday 1PM (1:1:1)

Friday 9PM (1:1:1)

Saturday 9AM (1:1:1)

Saturday 3PM (1:1:1)

Saturday 9PM (1:2:2)

Then on Sunday: 7:45AM: made the levain (pre-ferment) from 71g of my starter (which didn't smell acidic and doubled in volume), 71g of water and 71g of whole wheat. Ambient temperature was 20,5°C (68.9F)

9AM: prepared the autolyse from the remaining water, flour, whole wheat and salt

1:30PM: the levain has more than doubled in size so I incorporated it in the autolyse. Bulk proof starts here.

2:20PM: did some strong stretch&folds in the mixing bowl

3:05PM: did some strong stretch&folds in the mixing bowl

3:50PM: lamination (stretching the dough thinly over the kitchen counter). I left the dough lying there for about 5 minutes before picking it up to create additional dough strength. The weight difference before and after lamination was 14 grams. This included dough that stuck to the counter, my hands and the evaporation. 14gr makes 0.9% from the total dough weight. Then transferred the dough to a rectangular pyrex dish which I cover with a plastic box turned upside down (to prevent drying out the dough)

4:45PM: coil folds. Dough temp 21,3°C (70F) (large bubbles appeared on top of the dough, dough was starting to feel airy)

5:30PM: coil folds. Dough temp 21,5°C (70.7F)

6:15PM: coil folds. Dough temp 21,5°C (70.7F)

7:10PM: coil folds. Dough temp 21,7°C (71F)

7:50PM: coil folds. Dough temp 21,9°C (71.4F) (large bubbles on top of dough dissappeared)

8:30PM: pre-shape. Divided the dough in three parts without weighing them (to minimize handling the dough to prevent escape of gasses) and carefully made circular shapes by gently folding the outsides of the dough to the inside

9:10PM: final shape. I flip the dough upside down, fold left and right side to the middle and roll-up the dough from top to bottom. Then transferred to bannetons. One of the three doughs went immediately to the fridge for a cold retard. The other two I keep in my oven (turned off) for a final proof.

9:50PM: second dough goes to fridge

10:20PM: third dough goes to fridge

 

On Monday at 6:30PM I start baking these the same way as batch 1. Here's the pictures:

albacore's picture
albacore

Scoring Points

I  made bread yesterday, retarded the loaves overnight and baked them this morning. Normally, I do a central score, but on a whim, I scored one loaf well to the side. Both scores were pretty shallow and well angled.

I was very surprised at the difference between the two loaves:

As you can guess, the centrally scored loaf is on the left. It has spread much more laterally than the other one and is considerably less tall - 80mm vs 100mm maximum height.

 

Lance

benjamin163's picture
benjamin163

Bakers. Lend me your ears...

Hello, I am baking bread with strong white flour and a dough that is 75% hydration.

I mix in a mixer slowly for 15 minutes until I have a nice silky dough that stretches and behaves.

I bulk ferment for three hours with three or four stretches in between.

I pre shape, building tension successfully.

I shape. It never seems quite as easy as King Arthurs or proof bread make it look but I'm getting there. It feels a bit looser and more wobbly than their final shape but it behaves well enough.

I put it in a banneton and in a fridge to cold proof overnight.

In the morning I turn out and score with the blade at about 30%. The surface cuts but the dough does spread fairly quickly, almost instantaneously. 

I bake on a stone in a hot over at 220 with steam.

The result is in the picture. A nice light loaf. Airy enough. But with absolutely no ears or evidence of massive spring.

Is it in the shaping that I'm failing? Or in the scoring? Do I need to try a dough with less hydration. I'd expect more holes too. Is that related.

Any help and guidance gratefully received. Here's a couple more pics of baguette prepared the same way...

 

Kistida's picture
Kistida

Monday bakes

Has anyone baked the little dough used for gauging fermentation? 🤣 This is my baby dough (sitting on a teaspoon) from today’s sourdough cheese-stuffed fougasse (adapted from Maurizio’s) - this lil one took 18 minutes to bake. 

There were also baked potato skins with butter chicken filling and ..

.. my test bake: 6” lemon blueberry cake with walnut crumble. Usually whole berries are tossed in flour and folded into the batter but I wanted to see what happens when the batter is tinted with the fruit. This time the pigments changed slightly during the bake with blue most intense on the skins. As suggested by Benny, maybe I should use a lil bit of *ascorbic acid when working with such pigmented fruit. 

The lemon cake is tasty on its own without any other fruit inclusions. No syrup for this cake today since I’ve a crunchy walnut crumble on the top. 

 

6” lemon cake

  • 130g all purpose flour 
  • 5g cornflour
  • 1/4 tsp salt
  • 1/2 tsp baking soda
  • 60g sugar
  • Zest from 1 lemon
  • 30g unsalted butter
  • 20g light olive oil
  • 1 large egg
  • 60g fresh lemon juice
  • 60g milk
  • 1/2 tsp lemon extract
  • Optional: mixed berries tossed in flour 

 Blueberry reduction (for swirls/batter)

  • 150g blueberries 
  • 40g sugar
  • 1 tbsp water
  • 2 tsp lemon juice
  • Zest of 1/2 lemon 

 Walnut sugar topping 

  • 30g chopped walnut, untoasted
  • 15g sugar
  • A pinch of ground cinnamon
  • A pinch of salt
  • 15g unsalted butter 


*For canning and dehydration of fruit/vegetables, it’s suggested that the cut fruits/vegetables be soaked in a solution of ascorbic/citric acid for about 3-5 minutes to prevent discoloration/oxidation: 1500mg to 1 cup of water. I’ve to test this method followed by a 180-200°C bake. :)

 

 

Pages