The Fresh Loaf

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Anonymous baker's picture
Anonymous baker (not verified)

High hydration failure

Hi all,

I've been browsing around the forums for a while and I really enjoy reading about everyone's bread baking adventures. Unfortunately, my own experiences with baking sourdough to date have been more frustrating than rewarding.

I've been baking sourdough seriously for longer than I care to admit (about 3 years), and I could probably count my successes on one hand. I've had the most success with Trevor's low hydration recipe, but every time increase the hydration of my loaf, I start to run into trouble. It seems that my dough is always an unworkable puddle and nothing like what I see on youtube. Even if I shape the dough very tightly, it still feels very slack and loses its shape.

On top of that, the weather here in the southern hemisphere has really cooled down, so I'm finding it even more difficult to manage proofing times. I'm using an insulated box with a heat mat as a makeshift proofing box, but maintaining a stable temperature is really hard. Last bake, I'm pretty convinced I underproofed the loaf (it had a fairly obvious fools crumb), and I just popped one into the fridge this evening that poured onto my bench into a pancake. It seemed to have no structure at all, so I'm guessing it might have been overproofed.

Granted this is quite generaly, but can anyone offer some advice on where I might be going wrong? Also, does everyone who turns out consistent loaves have some sort of temperature control? I feel like even after all of the years, I don't have a good feel for when a loaf is proofed to perfection. Strangely enough, I have that intuition with commercial yeast, but sourdough still eludes me!

For reference, here's my process:

* 100g wholegrain flour

* 400g baker's flour

* 350g water

* 100g levain (taken from 35g ripe starter, 7g wholegrain flour, 28g baker's flour, 35g water)

* 10g salt

Mix flours and water and autolyse for 1 hour.

Add levain and salt and pinch them in.

Slap and fold 400 times.

Bulk proof for 7 hours in a proofing box (temperature fluctuates between 18 and 26 °C, but is usually around the 20 mark).

Given the fluctuation in temperature, I've been trying to improve my ability to assess when the bread is proofed. I generally wait until it's got small bubbles on the surface, it's increased in volume and it feels a bit lighter.

I then preshape and leave it for 15 mins.

Final shape and into the fridge overnight.

The next morning I bake at 320°C, covered for 10 mins, open for 20+.

harum's picture
harum

is it a bit flat?

Brought some bread this afternoon from a nearby bakery to find this in a bag.  It's 11-1/2" in diam and 1-3/4" thick around the center.   I know it's got "100% rye" in its name, but not much more.  Is the extra flatness intentional or is it just a botched batch?  Taste is okay, except that it's mostly crust, which makes it somewhat bitter.  

Slideslinger's picture
Slideslinger

Forkish Walnut Levain

Here's my attempt at Ken Forkish's Walnut Levain Bread. I used his recipe, as found on the Tastecooking website, except for the addition of dried cherries and golden raisins. I'm totally satisfied with the incredibly moist and delicious results. I baked both loaves in a 5 qt dutch oven, and tried to make them as well done as Ken normally would. Not too shabby, eh?

Walnut Cherry Levain, loaf 1

dan.r.crothers@gmail.com's picture
dan.r.crothers@...

Nooks & Crannies

What's the secret to getting big nooks and crannies in english muffins? I've heard a higher hydration, almost batter is the only way. But I've also heard baking soda is the key. Ideally, I like to make the muffins with a free form dough instead of a batter. 

SunnyGail's picture
SunnyGail

under proofed? over proofed? Handling issues? Something else??

I’m feeling a bit embarrassed here, but I cannot say if this bread is under-proofed or over-proofed...Can somebody help me figure out what went wrong?

 

Here’s what I did, based on Trevor’s Champlain sourdough bread recipe:

http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/

 

 

3-hour autolyse (instead of overnight)

Bulk for 6 hours at 26-28°C until 80% rise (not intentionally) with 4 coil fold sessions

At the end of the bulk, the dough was really bubbly and stuck to the top of the container, so I struggled a bit to get it out of it (dough handling issues at this point I suppose...)

Then shaping (very poor due to the lack of strength of the dough / To be honest I just folded the dough over itself, that’s it...)

30mn rest at room t°

Fridge overnight (12h at 3°C), wrapped in a couche: The dough stuck to the couche and came out the following morning with dried areas on the top)

I cannot say precisely how proofed the dough was at the end of the retard as I forgot to place a lid on the aliquot jar so the top of the dough sample became really dry and kind of stuck to the sides, preventing the sample to fully expand....My guess is that it was nearly 100%

Struggle to place the dough into the Dutch oven

Cooked 25mn at 230° with lid + 10mn without lid

 

So I believe that the bulk was too long, but I’m not sure...Or is it the handling that was too clumsy? ... all of the above??

Anything else that I'm missing??

 

Thank you for giving me your insight,

 

Gaelle

dablues's picture
dablues

Norm's Onion Rolls via Elagins

Questions:  I decided to try the formula as is.  Of course there is way to much of a batch for just two people.  In the future would like to divide the dough in half.  Now, do I halve all ingredients including the yeast?

Also.  To make the topping stick better other than spritzing with some water to make it stick, is there something else that can be done to make it stay on top after baking.  Like could you brush the top with egg white?  Or would that be a No No.  

Also, haven't eaten one yet, so don't know if the inside would be airy, or dense.  Anyone have thoughts on this.  I prefer more airy, but since this dough is a stiff dough, haven't the foggiest of what is inside.  Am sure it will be tasty.

Even doing a half batch, I still might have to freeze some since like I said only two in the household and hubby is diabetic, won't give up bread, so don't want him eating it all right away, so need to freeze after baking.

Hope I get some answers.  I have had this recipe for a long, long time but never got around to trying it, although I have tried all kinds of hard rolls, etc.  '

This is still my favorite site, the First site that helped get to where I am today, but I'm still not there in the shaping department no matter how many videos I try, or how many different techniques are taught.  It's me!  I need one on one visible instructions but my breads.  My breads do come out ok, but I see so many "perfect" shaped breads, it makes me a bit envious.  

Gadjowheaty's picture
Gadjowheaty

Low (1% salt) in levain builds - Rubaud.

I am very interested in exploring M. Rubaud's approach to pain au levain.  I am guided quite strongly by the work of members Shiao-Ping and dmsnyder, themselves drawing strongly from the work of MC in her blog pages concerning M. Rubaud and his approach.

I am choosing to stick pretty closely to the script, and that includes the use of 1% sea salt (1% of flours, baker's) at each of the three levain builds.

I have only used salt in soakers, per Hamelman, when I first went through his book.  I've never used it in levain building and I'm intrigued by M. Rubaud's admonition to make sure and add the salt at this rate for each of the builds (iirc, Calvel does the same when developing a new levain):

"These 11.5 kg of levain will inoculate about 48 kg of flour. But don’t forget the salt. 1% salt (freshly ground salt from the Dead Sea) is added to each feeding in order to control the fermentation. If a levain ferments too fast, it becomes oily and deteriorates rapidly."

Seemingly at least my read is that, as with Hamelman, his use of salt has less to do with microbial inhibition and more to do with retarding (largely proteolytic?) enzymes.  Even at this modest level, there's no doubt it is slowing the build process considerably. My levain build 3 has been plugging away slowly all day, and I estimate it will be close to 3X initial volume 2-3 am.

Both Shiao-Ping and dmsnyder chose to forego these salt additions.  My suspicion is that simple observation would be enough to avoid the poor result Rubaud indicates.  I hate messing with the ecology of a natural ferment - don't want to preferentially favor yeasts and salt-tolerant bacterias.  

Could the community discuss their views on salting the levain for this purpose, per Rubaud's charge?  Anyone do it?  Is this just a bit of safety mechanism for time-stressed bakers in a commercial setting? Any info on what species might get dinged, even at a mere 1% salt level?

loaflove's picture
loaflove

Cheddar Jalepeno sourdough

75% hydration.  I'm getting better at handling high hydration doughs but don't like how it doesn't hold its shape well and spreads immediately after coming out of the fridge. The oven spring wasn't great either.  And to make matters worse the heavy inclusions weighed it down even more.  So next time , it's going to be max 73% hydration if there are heavy inclusions.  I find the crumb isn't much more open in 75% vs 73% maybe because the 75% needed more stretch and folds. I'd probably get better oven spring too if I did more sets.  I only do 4 sets.  

Samammie's picture
Samammie

Sourdough Starter Analysis

Hi everyone! I have been reading TFL for quite some time, but just recently decided to make an account and start posting. I have a question about SD starter analysis. Does anyone know of a place (or someone) that offers a service you can pay to send in your SD culture and have it analyzed? I know of one company that is only accepting select starters for their library after you have registered it on their site..but I am looking for more of a sure-fire thing. I am curious because I purchased a starter that could be traced back 200+years supposedly..but my home made starter is much more active. I am wondering if maybe the drying/revive process/environment affected it..or maybe it was kept in the fridge and I keep mine on the counter..but it is just super sluggish and I am trying everything I can think of to strengthen it. It was so bad I baked a pancake with it this morning 😭 and both the starter and my dough smelled extremely acidic. Whatever is going on..I think the acid might be killing the yeast..I am feeding it multiple times a day and still cant get rid of the acidity. So I was really hoping I could find a place to examine it, lol. Anyway nice to meet you all! 

-Sammie

SunnyGail's picture
SunnyGail

Champlain Sourdough bread

I’ve already tried this recipe a few times but with always the following tweaks:  a 1-hour-only autolyse, coil folds instead of S&F and retard in the fridge)

But this time I decided to follow the recipe to the letter (except for adding 15g of bassinage)

http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/ 

 

Autolyse: 3 hours at room t° (21°) then overnight in the fridge (10h at 3°)

Mix / rest 10mn /mix / rest 5mn / bassinage +15g / rest 5mn  / S&F

6h of bulk at 23-30° until vol *50% in aliquot jar / 3 sessions of gentle S&F the first 3 hours

Shaping

Proofing 2h at 21° until Vol*90% in aliquot jar

 Bake in Dutch oven at 230° for 30mn with lid + 15mn no lid

 

I’m over the moon: I’ve never EVER had such a beautiful oven spring!! (Mind you, I’ve only been baking sourdough bread for a few weeks ;-))) )...I can’t stop dancing and jumping around in my kitchen right now ....

I know that the shaping could have been better....But who cares...I’ve got an oven-spring !!!!!! ♫♫♫

 

And here is the crumb, photographed after a good night of rest:

 

I never know what to think of those big alveoli/tunnels, to be honest, as they can be really deceiving...

Can anybody tell me if the crumb/the holes show any sign of anything?? Maybe too this, or not enough that...??

Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism!

 

Gaëlle

 

 

 

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