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supperstone's picture
supperstone

Pizza problems

These forums have always been invaluable to me in the past so I thought I would throw my latest problem out there and see if anyone can help. I would also like to point out that I have done much searching on the internet and have found many conflicting opinions regarding pizza dough/bases.


I suppose the real basic problem is that I cannot get my pizza dough really thin and crispy. I try and try to stretch it but it always springs back. (FYI, I have a pizza stone and a paddle. I cook the pizza on baking paper on the stone and I remove the paper a couple of minutes after cooking.)


I have taken to rolling the dough out on baking paper which definitely helps but I still get very thick edges and it is always shrinking back. Then of course it all puffs up in the oven. It tastes great, my wife loves it but it is far too bready for me. You get full quickly.


I have used three different recipes, one was from Jamie Oliver's Italian book using strong white bread flour, another was from the same book using just '00' flour and the third was from Bertinet's 'Crust' or 'Dough' - I forget which. They all give me the same problem so I am reluctant to believe it is a recipe problem.


Where I think I am going wrong: - many people say you must rest the dough if it is shrinking back etc. Unfortunately we don't always have a lot of time as either my wife or I are going back out again for the evening so time is sometimes quite short. 


Once my batch of dough is made, I separate it into balls and freeze it. On the day of baking I take the dough out of the freezer in the morning and leave it on the kitchen side all day. When I get home from work it has puffed up a lot. I deflate it and start the painful process of getting it thin. I tend to think it has all day resting and so I just get on with it - perhaps this is where I am going wrong. I have also tried defrosting it in the fridge but of course it is very cold when I get home and I just don't have an hour or so to get it to room temperature.


I have never tried making the pizzas as soon as the dough is ready - it always get frozen - could this be my first problem?


My dough is NEVER like the dough on youtube where they just hand stretch it to super transparency. Mine fights me.


Base rising in oven:


There are a few recipes online for no-rise pizza dough. like here and here. You make the dough, stretch it and bake it. This appeals to me as I am low on time. Is the rising period just for developing flavour? Can you skip this part and still get a decent pizza base? Would the fact that there is no initial rise keep it thinner in the oven and stop it puffing up quite so much?


So to simplify - 1.I have never been able to produce a thin pizza base with my hands or a rolling pin - they defy me every time.


                       2. Even when I get the base as thin as I can manage it rises in the oven and becomes quite bready (more like a deep pan I                         suppose). This could be because it wasn't thin enough to start with. See problem 1.


Any help appreciated, many thanks.

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

100% WW cottage cheese lemony sandwich loaf - my sourdough starter declares defeat!


 


This recipe is adapted from "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book", my favorite WW bread book. There's nothing wrong with the formula itself, other than needing quite a bit more water, however, my attempt to convert it to sourdough has failed completely. Oh, don't think I haven't tried many time. Different rising schedule, different starter ratio, different cottage cheese, even added baking soda to offset the acidity of cottage cheese, they all ended up the same: the dough started tearing and collapsing 3 to 4 hours into the rise, no ovenspring to speak of.


 


2 huge tubs of cottage cheese later, I declare defeat. Here's my guess on why this formula doesn't work with sourdough, but I am in no way certain, and welcome all advices and theories!


- cheese has extra protease


- this formula has quite a bit of cottage cheese mixed in as part of liquid (35%)


- since it's part of liquid, cottage cheese were kneaded into the dough from the start, so it's very integrated into the dough structure


- using sourdough starter, my rise schedule is way longer than the 3 hours in the original formula. The loaf in the picture were made according to original formula with instant yeast, as you can see, there's no gluten break down, the loaf is tall and proud. so I guess my sourdough verion simply takes too long to rise, giving extra protease enough time to destroy the gluten structure.


- I could try to reduce the cottage cheese ratio, or shortened the rising time, but then that defeat the purpose of making pure sourdough verison of THIS formula


 


Anyway, here's the (slightly adapted) original formula and pictures using instant yeast, the bread is very delicious, even without sourdough.


Lemony Loaf (adapted from "Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book")


*formula is good for a 8X4inch loaf pan


 


ww flour, 413g


wheat germ,14g


instant yeast, 3.5g


water, 247g


cottage cheese, 145g


honey, 21g


butter, 14g


salt, 5.5g


lemon zest, from one lemon


 


1. Mix cottage cheese, honey, and 120g of water, heat to almost boiled, well mixed. Cool to room temp.


2. Add the rest of cold water, flour, wheat germ, yeast, salt, lemon zest, autolyse for 30min. Knead well, add buter, knead until past windowpane.



3. Rise at 80F for 1.5 to 2 hours until double, press with finger the dough won't bounce back. Punch down, and rise again until double, it will take half of the time as the first rise.


4. Shape and put in a 8X4in loaf pan


5. Rise at 90F until the dough is about 1inch above the rim, slowly bounce back a bit when pressed. About 45min to 1 hour.



6. Bake at 350F for 45min. Brush with butter when warm



 


You can't taste cottage cheese perse, but it does make the crumb very soft. This effect makes me wonder whether it also completely "breaks down" the gluten given enough time.



 


As delicous as this loaf is, the questions are still nagging me: "WHY exactly has my sourdough version failed?", "Can it work somehow?"


 


Submitting to Yeastspotting.

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Test Tube Baking [1] continued: White French Bread - overproof

Hi,


In my blog entry Test Tube Baking [1]: White French Bread I investigated how the final proof  affects the outcome: Where does underproof end and where does overproof start, and what are the symptoms in the finished bread...


I chose to make batards proved seam-side up, and I think the choice of this method somewhat carmouflaged the effects of overproofing: Because the loaves had to be turned over onto a peel the fragile areas just under the skin collapsed, resulting in loaves with a surprisingly even texture. (this is my interpretation)


I wanted to see those big holes!


This time I decided to make 200g boules and avoid all handling during and after the final proof: after shaping I put them on buttered baking trays.


3 boules at 200g each, proved for 60, 120 and 160 minutes. The environment was slightly coolet than last time, about 22 to 24C.


At 60 minutes the boules seemed well risen and the poke test showed a slow response.


At 120min the remaining 2 boules had spread quite a bit, and when poking the dough it didn't resist any more.


boule raw 60 min


 


At 160 min the piece of dough which had been a boule looked more like a focacia, but it had all those bubbles. Poking the dough created bubbles places far away from the dent.


boule raw 160 min


A sad sight.


Here is a picture of the baked loaves:


boules


Observations:


Oven spring: the 60 min boule had good oven spring (30%), the 120 min boule had little oven spring, and the 160 min boule had no oven spring at all.


Blowouts: The 60min boule had a blowout near the base.


All loaves had fairly weak bottom crust due to them being baked on baking sheets, which were cold.


Some crumb shots:


crumb 60min


A big hole! at 60 min proof!


proof 120min


A different kind of a hole at 120 min. And quite a different crumb. Signs of gluten breakdown.


proof 160min


Total gluten breakdown at 160 min.


The crumb of this last specimen is more like the crumb I know from 100% hydration rye breads, just much dryer. The bubble structure of a bread at 60 min has turnted more into a complex structure with no distinct air pockets: everything is connected. There is no springiness, and the feeling in the mouth is more like cake, the taste a bit yeasty.


Here a direct comparison of the crumb:



 


The huge blowout at 60 min was a surprise, I attributed it to a lack of slashing.


So I made 2 more boules with 60 min final proof, on buttered cold baking trays, one slashed, the other not.


slash 1


 


Both had blowouts of some degree, and the area under the skin was still very weak in the slashed loaf, while the unslashed loaf had a big hole.


slash crumb


 


I attribute this crumb to the cold baking tray- when put in the oven the top of the boules start fermenting immediately while the bottom gets going only after the baking sheet gets hot.


So many things to consider.


Conclusion:


In this experiment I produced some overproofed loaves with visible effects of gluten breakdown.


The reference loaves proofed at "optimum" time showed blowouts and flying crust which (I think) are effects of not slashing, and using cold baking trays.


I hope you find my investigations useful.


My family found these experiments tasty, and you will be glad to hear nothing has been wasted.


Thanks,


Juergen


 


 

wally's picture
wally

Great series on shaping and slashing doughs

Sharon (fishers) posted this video series originally and we both felt it should be easily available to TFL members.  The series, entitled Formes de pains covers a variety of breads, either baguette- or batard-shaped originally, and demonstrates how to decoratively slash them as well.  It's a gold mine of both familiar and less familiar breads you would run across in a French market.


Enjoy!


Larry

Zeb's picture
Zeb

English Cider and Apple Bread

Here are a couple of pics of the bread as it turned out in the end on Sunday. It tasted lovely!




Joanna @ Zeb Bakes

tonia.g.white's picture
tonia.g.white

white whole wheat VS whole wheat

I found a recipe I would like to try for whole wheat pizza dough, but I just noticed it calls for WHITE whole wheat.  I understand the differences between the two (I believe), but can I substitute whole wheat in place of white whole wheat or will that mess up the chemistry of the baking process?  Should I add/take away something else to compensate? (It also calls for vital wheat gluten).


If you couldn't tell, I'm fairly new to baking.  I do appreciate any handy tips!

freerk's picture
freerk

I love dramatic breads!

Loved making the couronne bordelaise. Thank you Susan (susanfnp) for the very nice  "norwich sourdough". I'm still finding out the tweaks for European flour (I need to firm up the dough a little more), but it's a very nice dough to work with already! Also I need to give my starter a little more time, I was impatient :-)


 



 


and here a view of the crust


 



 


happy baking!!!


 


X Freerk


 

proth5's picture
proth5

Formula Development IV - You only try twice

It's a slow, agonizing sort of thing that I do.  (Especially being able to bake only once a week.  Hey, King Arthur Flour - if you need a full time high altitude test baker - call me!)  I would like to have the genius to throw many things in the bowl of My Preciousss confident that it will be good bread, but that is not me.  It never has been and I strongly suspect that it never will.  Even if the bread was delicious, I would pound myself with "what if I had done X or Y - would it be better?" No, better to stay single factor.


But I am nothing if not market driven (even overcoming my aversion to all acts photographic to post pictures of what I feel is much better described as "brown loaf - fine crumb") and so allowed myself to be influenced by cries for "More triticale, please!"


So I increased the percentage of tritcale to 20% of the total flour in a firm pre ferment. 


It was very informative. (That's never good...)


One thing to realize is like its cousin rye, triticale absorbs a lot of water.  Removing enough water  from that used to soak the oats to make a 60% hydration pre ferment with the triticale left me with an oat mixture that was wet enough to soak the oats, but not enough (even when the pre ferment was added) to create bread dough.


Did I achieve the elusive "hydration neutral?"  Hardly.  Once again there was no visible water, but the oatmeal mixture definitely gave up some moisture into the dough.  Ah yes, just what I needed - another ideal to struggle with! I'll have to tell the doctors at "The Place" about this...


 I had to add a full 8oz of water (in 2 oz increments) to get a somewhat tacky dough and I did need to mix for 8 minutes for the thing to come together.


The next thing that occurred is the dough still rose like gangbusters.  I spend time mulling over that I now have a dough that is weighted down with oatmeal and grain that has a reputation as one that won't support good rise in bread (I read that 50% triticale is an absolute upper limit) and it still rises like gangbusters.  I feel strongly that this will result in another ill conceived experiment with 100% triticale bread where I pre ferment a very high portion of the flour and bake it in a pan, but for now I must focus


In fact, there was some degradation in the quality of the crumb.  It was light and airy, but sliced thinly tore apart when buttered (unless toasted - it is delicious toasted).  And it was delicious, but not much more delicious than 10% which had a better crumb and nicer dough handling qualities.   Picture below - note the somewhat less sturdy crumb (if you can.)


So, another slow step forward only to decide that this time I went too far.


The bread wasn't bad, and to keep a complete log, I am presenting the formula in spite of its flaws.  But now I am going to stop a bit and remember what I was trying to accomplish: Take a simply made sandwich loaf (and there seem to be a lot of very small variants on the "oatmeal bread" in the baking literature), use some of the newer techniques to make it better, and use ingredients that might be more local to the Mountain West.   I have to lie to myself pretty much to claim that things like oats and triticale "could" be local.  Certainly they have wider growing ranges than the very fine, fine wheat that we produce on our high plains, but they are more adapted to cool, wet climates.  But oats are part of the original formula, triticale is my favorite, and there are times when my capacity for self deception is high. 


The formula:


Total Dough Wt

 

68.958

oz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ingredients

 

 

Percent of Flour in Levain

0.2

 

Final Dough

 

 

 

%

Wt

UOM

%

WT

UOM

Ingredients

Wt

UOM

Total Flour

1

27

oz

1

5.4

oz

Total Flour

21.6

oz

KA AP Flour

0.8

24.3

oz

 

 

 

KA AP Flour

24.3

oz

Triticale Flour

0.2

2.7

 

1

5.4

oz

 

 

 

Water

0.42

11.34

 

0.6

3.24

oz

Water

8.1

 

Rolled Oats

0.17

4.59

oz

 

 

 

Rolled Oats

4.59

oz

Steel Cut Oats

0.11

2.97

oz

 

 

 

Steel Cut Oats

2.97

oz

Boiling water

0.62

16.74

oz

 

 

 

Boiling water

16.74

oz

Shortening(leaf lard)

0.04

1.08

oz

 

 

 

Shortening(leaf lard)

1.08

oz

Molasses

0.112

3.024

oz

 

 

 

Molasses

3.024

oz

Milk Powder

0.04

1.08

oz

 

 

 

Milk Powder

1.08

oz

Salt

0.028

0.756

oz

 

 

 

Salt

0.756

oz

Yeast

0.006

0.162

oz

 

 

 

Yeast

0.162

oz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seed

0.008

0.216

oz

0.04

0.216

oz

Levain

8.856

oz

Totals

2.554

68.958

oz

1.64

8.856

oz

 

71.658

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Combine the two types of oats, boiling water, milk powder and shortening.  Allow to cool to lukewarm. 

Add the salt, molasses, yeast, levain, and flour.  Mix 8 minutes on the single speed of the spiral mixer. Or use your preferred method of mixing.

Let rise until doubled - 2 hours at 78-80F.  Fold.  Let rise again - about 2 hours 78-80F.  (Note the change - it was too cold in my house to use cool room temperature)

Shape and place in greased pans.  Proof (1 hour) and bake at 375F for 40 minutes.  Remove from pans and cool on a rack

And the picture (of a brown loaf with a fine crumb...)

 Brown Loaf - fine crumb

But there are other ingredients to tweak (and using honey is just too obvious - or is it?) and the troublesome matter of "inclusions."  While not wanting to make a seedy, nutty bread (I actually have, as one of my 2011 formula goals such a thing, but not in this style) I ponder what might make a not too crunchy set of inclusions for a good "sammich" loaf.  I shall continue to ponder until I nail down next week's formula.

J.K.L.'s picture
J.K.L.

Sourdough Bao Zi or Mantou - anyone with experience?

I am gearing up to make some sourdough Bao Zi (chinese stuffed, steamed bun). Scoured the web and there's really hardly anybody doing something like that. Most of what I found were people using a quick yeasted dough with white flour. 


 


I want to try a whole wheat sourdough Bao zi or Mantou (steamed bun)!! 


 


But before I start with the experimenting, I wanted to gather any tips...Anybody tried steaming sourdough before? Or making a stuffed sourdough that was steamed or baked? Difference between using a whole wheat vs. white wheat vs. white whole wheat? 


 


Thanks! BTW, this is my first post and haven't properly introduced myself, but am glad to find this forum. Greetings to all! 

txfarmer's picture
txfarmer

SFBI Miche - A big one!


This miche is from David's wonderful post here. I didn't change a thing. Even kept the weight exactly same at 2KG, which makes it the biggest bread I've ever made. I debated using high extraction flour instead, but decided to use AP and WW as SFBI specified just to see how it will come out. Can you tell? I tried to draw Tic-Tac-Toe with my scoring pattern, kinda hard to see after being baked for so long.


 


The dough is wonderful to handle - soft and fluid which I love, but not too wet. Crumb is very open on the edge



 


But denser in the middle, which I expect from a miche this size.



 


Crackling singing crust. It was a mess to cut because the crust was flying everywhere!



 


We had it for dinner, after out of oven for 8 hours. Crust is thick and chewy, crumb is moist (cool) and spongy in the middle. Not very sour. Less flavorful than my previous miche made from high extraction flour, but the texture is just perfect. Of course I do expect the flavor to deepen by tomorrow and the day after. I think I will make the formula again using high extraction flour just to compare.



 


David, thanks for a great formula. This is a good base to tweak from. Other than different flour combo, I would like to try larger size. I THINK my baking stone and oven can take a 3KG one, we'll see...



 


Submitting to Yeastspotting.

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