The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

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msbreadbaker's picture

not rec' emails

Floyd, I hope you will see this, I am not getting the emails from the new system. I did at first, then they stopped. I couldn't even figure out how to contact you, the old way of clicking on the user in the post is not working now. Also, I'm sure you are aware a lot of the printed areas are very light, nearly unreadable. I really miss the emails, hope you can shed some light on this. (to someone who's not too computer savy!) Take care, Jean P., msbreadbaker

janby's picture

Rye bread, possible the no knead way?

I have been making a "slow bread" for several years now that is a combination of whole wheat and bread flour and at times other grains mixed in.   No kneading and the time from starter to bread making meets my schedule.   Lately I have been hungry for a good rye bread.  All the recipes I have considered are the standard method for bread baking and mostly sour rye recipes.  Can I make rye bread with a starter, no knead method?  Any hints on how to do this would be appreciated.

isand66's picture

Tangzhong Onion Potato Rolls

GroupCloseTangzhong is the technique of heating a portion of the flour and liquid in your recipe to approximately 65C to make a paste (roux).  At this temperature the flour undergoes a change and gelatinizes.  By adding this roux to your final dough it will help create a soft, fluffy, moist open crumb.  It is also supposed to help prevent the bread from going stale.

I've seen many posts lately using this technique from my baking friend DA as well as many others.  I decided to base the technique for these rolls on the Hokkaido Milk Bread posted by Floyd but of course I changed most of the ingredients so it didn't really end up as fluffy and shreddable as the beautiful loaf he made.

It is not very difficult to do a Tangzhong.  Use a  5 to 1 liquid to solid ratio (so 250g liquid to 50g flour) and mix it together in a pan.  Heat the pan while stirring constantly.  Initially it will remain a liquid, but as you approach 65C it will undergo a change and thicken to an almost pudding like consistency.  Take it off the heat and let it cool before using it in your recipe.  Some people will refrigerate it for a while but you can use it right away as soon as it cools.

I really like the effect this has on the crumb and will definitely try this again.

I wanted to make some rolls to use for some chicken burgers I was making on the grill tonight and since I love onions and potatoes I figured why not incorporate that into the mix as well.  I used my refreshed AP starter, some milk, sautéed onions, mashed potatoes, assorted whole grain flours and the potato water with some Durum and European style flour for the Tangzhong.

The final result was a nice soft crumb, crisp crust and tasty roll.FinishedRolls


Note: Tangzhong consisted of 30 grams European Style Flour, 20 grams Durum Flour and 250 grams Potato Water.  I included this in the overall formula below.


Levain Directions

Mix all the levain ingredients together for about 1 minute and cover with plastic wrap.  Let it sit at room temperature for around 7-8 hours or until the starter has doubled.  I usually do this the night before.

Either use in the main dough immediately or refrigerate for up to 1 day before using.

 Main Dough Procedure

Cut up the onion into rings and sauté on low heat until nice and canalized using some olive oil or butter in your pan. Let the onions cool completely and chop into smaller pieces before using in the dough.

Prepare the Tangzhong per directions above and allow to cool to room temperature.

Mix the flours, Tangzhong and milk together in your mixer or by hand until it just starts to come together, maybe about 1 minute.  Let it rest in your work bowl covered for 20-30 minutes.  Next add the salt, starter (cut into about 7-8 pieces), and olive oil and mix on low for a minute.   Mix for a total of 13 minutes in your mixer starting on low-speed and working your way up to speed #3 for the last 5 minutes.  Remove the dough from your bowl and place it in a lightly oiled bowl or work surface and do several stretch and folds.  Let it rest covered for 10-15 minutes and then do another stretch and fold.  Let it rest another 10-15 minutes and do one additional stretch and fold.  After a total of 2 hours place your covered bowl in the refrigerator and let it rest for 12 to 24 hours.

When you are ready to bake remove the bowl from the refrigerator and let it set out at room temperature still covered for 1.5 to 2 hours.  Remove the dough and cut into equal size pieces and shape into rolls.  Place on a baking sheet lined with parchment paper and cover with moist tea towels or plastic wrap sprayed with cooking spray.RollsonSheetbeforeoven

The dough will take 1.5 to 2 hours depending on your room temperature.  Let the dough dictate when it is read to bake not the clock.

Around 45 minutes before ready to bake, pre-heat your oven to 500 degrees F. and prepare it for steam.  I have a heavy-duty baking pan on the bottom rack of my oven with 1 baking stone on above the pan and one on the top shelf.  I pour 1 cup of boiling water in the pan right after I place the dough in the oven.

Right before you are ready to put them in the oven, using a simple egg wash brush each roll and sprinkle on your topping of choice.   Next add 1 cup of boiling water to your steam pan or follow your own steam procedure.

After 1 minute lower the temperature to 425 degrees.  Bake for 35 minutes until the crust is nice and brown.

Take the rolls out of the oven when done and let them cool on a bakers rack before for at least 2 hours before eating.


Mookie and Lucy Waiting for the Rolls to Bake


thebreadfairy's picture

Rofco Ovens

For those people who have been lusting after the Belgian Rofco ovens, I just noticed that they are being sold at Pleasant Hill Grain, along with Haussler ovens. Be forewarned, they are not cheap!

Alex11's picture


How do i get the open and airy texture of a brioche as opposed to the dense crumby version, i have been using the michel roux recipe for this and it came out very dense and smelt

slightly alchoholic.

CourtneyNMB's picture

Bread Business Plan!

I am planning to start a bread business soon and trying to write out my business plan. Does anyone have a sample bread business plan that they could provide for guidance? Also, does anyone know where to find bread and market stats? Please help! Thanks!

evonlim's picture

Organic Hokkaido brown sugar sourdough milk loaf studded with figs

since the Hokkaido milk loaf is such a hot topic thought i share my version. baked this for a friend who requested for a soft sourdough bread. of course with the help of txfarmer formula and clear instruction! 

handmade.. had good workout on the intensive kneading part to stage 3!! 

had a slice, amazingly soft, fragrant and yum :)

note: not very good at rolling the dough yet!


dhavaldippy's picture

using of frozen pizza base

hello every one i am working in a bakery. i produce pizza base for the outlet but i would like to deliver frozen pizza base to the outlets. i would like to know how much time does it take to thaw and can i use the base directly after thawing.

Juergens Detmolder Rye Sour

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss


This is the standard rye sour I use for my German - inspired rye breads


Prep time10 minutes
Cooking time
Total time10 minutes


100 g
Rye (Wholegrain) Flour
100 g


Ferment for 14 hours at 28C

If you have a different temperature, ferment longer.

Alternatively you can add more starter (up to 20%)

If your kitchen is hotter, you can use less mature starter (5%) or add some of the bread's salt.

I keep my starter in the fridge and refresh it once or twice before baking a batch (which happens once a week).

To start this rye sour begin with small quantities, and add abit of honey at the beginning:

1. Feed: 10 g rye + 10 g water + 1/2 tsp honey

2. Feed after 12 hours: add to feed 1: 10 g rye + 10 g water

3. Feed after further 12 hours: Add to feed 2: 20g rye + 20g water 

You get the idea. Proceed like this for 3 to 5 days, and yo should have something that is alive.

Now you can switch to a slower feeding cycle and less mature starter, e.g, the proposed ratios above once a day, until you are happy with the smell and taste.

You are ready to bake now. 




This starter looses about 10% of its weight during fermentation