The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

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isand66's picture

Kamut-Turkey Miche with Black Cherry Hard Cider

I was bored the other day so while surfing the internet for bread sites I revisited and was pleasantly surprised with some of the different flours and grains they offered for sale.  I decided to buy one of the ancient grains Kamut and also so hard red winter wheat called Turkey Whole Wheat Flour.  Below is some information from their website if you are interested.

Turkey Red Wheat, once the dominant variety of hard red winter wheat planted throughout the central U.S., is back in production in Kansas.  “Turkey” variety hard red winter wheat was introduced to Kansas in 1873, carried by Mennonite immigrants from Crimea in the Ukraine, fleeing Russian forced military service. In the mid-1880s, grainsman Bernard Warkentin imported some 10,000 bushels of Turkey seed from the Ukraine, the first commercially available to the general public. That 10,000 bushels (600,000 pounds) would plant some 150 square miles (10,000 acres). By the beginning of the twentieth century, hard red winter wheat, virtually all of it Turkey, was planted on some five million acres in Kansas alone. In the meantime, it had become the primary wheat variety throughout the plains from the Texas panhandle to South Dakota. Without “Turkey” wheat there would be no “Breadbasket.”

The Kamut flour is very similar to durum flour and here is some more information from their website.

Kamut® is an ancient grain and the brand name for khorasan wheat, a large amber wheat grain closely related to durum. Kamut is appreciated for its smooth, buttery, nutty flavor, and its high protein and nutritional content.  It contains a high mineral concentration especially in selenium, zinc, and magnesium with 20-40% more protein compared to modern-day wheat. It has a higher lipid to carbohydrate ratio, which means the grain produces greater energy and has a natural sweetness to counterbalance the occasional bitterness present in traditional wheat.

I went this weekend with my wife to the outlet stores and discovered a new store that sells only New York State wines, beers and spirits.  I picked up a mixed 6 pack of ales, stouts and ciders and decided to use the Black Cherry Hard Cider in my next bake.

I made a levain using my AP starter and some of the Turkey flour and AP flour.

For the main dough I used the Kamut flour along with Turkey flour, some molasses and dried onions that I reconstituted in some water and the Black Cherry Cider.

I followed my normal procedure below for making a miche and I must say I was very happy with the results.  You can taste the nuttiness of the 2 flours along with the hint of cherry from the cider.  The crust was nice and thick but the crumb was a bit tight which was probably due to the high percentage of the Turkey flour along with the Kamut flour.

Levain Directions

Mix all the levain ingredients together for about 1 minute and cover with plastic wrap.  Let it sit at room temperature for around 7-8 hours or until the starter has doubled.  I usually do this the night before.

Either use in the main dough immediately or refrigerate for up to 1 day before using.

Main Dough Procedure

Mix the flours, and 275 grams of the cider together in your mixer or by hand until it just starts to come together, maybe about 1 minute.  Let it rest in your work bowl covered for 20-30 minutes.  Next add the salt, starter (cut into about 7-8 pieces), molasses, and rehydrated onions and mix on low for a minute.  Add the rest of the cider unless the dough is way too wet.   Mix on low-speed for another 3 minutes.  Remove the dough from your bowl and place it in a lightly oiled bowl or work surface and do several stretch and folds.  Let it rest covered for 10-15 minutes and then do another stretch and fold.  Let it rest another 10-15 minutes and do one additional stretch and fold.  After a total of 2 hours place your covered bowl in the refrigerator and let it rest for 12 to 24 hours.

When you are ready to bake remove the bowl from the refrigerator and let it set out at room temperature still covered for 1.5 to 2 hours.  Remove the dough and shape as desired.  I made 1 large miche but you can make 2 boules or other shapes.  Place your dough into your proofing basket(s) and cover with a moist tea towel or plastic wrap sprayed with cooking spray.  The dough will take 1.5 to 2 hours depending on your room temperature.  Let the dough dictate when it is read to bake not the clock.

Around 45 minutes before ready to bake, pre-heat your oven to 500 degrees F. and prepare it for steam.  I have a heavy-duty baking pan on the bottom rack of my oven with 1 baking stone on above the pan and one on the top shelf.  I pour 1 cup of boiling water in the pan right after I place the dough in the oven.

Right before you are ready to put them in the oven, score as desired and then add 1 cup of boiling water to your steam pan or follow your own steam procedure.

After 1 minute lower the temperature to 450 degrees.  Bake for 35-50 minutes until the crust is nice and brown and the internal temperature of the bread is 205 degrees.

Take the bread out of the oven when done and let it cool on a bakers rack before for at least 2 hours before eating.

proth5's picture

A Girl and Her Bread Machine - part deux

To quote my university hymn “Time like an ever rolling stream” (well, and it originally went on to say “bears all her sons away” which made the whole thing problematic once those of us with the double X were finally allowed to roam the Dear Old Place’s hallowed halls – but that is another story…) and it has been quite a while since I posted part one of this saga. (The rocks and bumps over which the stream has rolled is yet another story – suffice it to say, a long one.)

Whole wheat bread in a bread machine seems to be a popular topic and I have been working on a formula, so it seems like a good time do to a full write-up.

Consulting the leaflet that came with the bread machine, it seemed that every whole wheat variation came with the ingredient of “vital wheat gluten.” Of course, upon reading that I could hear The Voice in My Head scornfully saying, “Well, Pat, if you want to use vital wheat gluten…”

To which I could only hang my head and reply, “No, I don’t, Sensei. I’ll aspire to better.”

(Oh, no – now I’ve gone and done it.  I’ve said negative things about the ingredient vital wheat gluten. Well, let me assure my small reading public that “The Voice in My Head” comes from actual conversations with a very real, and, as I like to put it “well qualified” baker. I will not intone “You do what you want” as I have no power to compel or prevent anyone from doing anything.  But as for me, I will deal with qualities of the grain as I find it and use technique to overcome any hardships.)

Of course, the tools were at hand.  A good intensive mix would make a fluffy whole wheat loaf, but no setting on the machine would mix long enough to deliver this – and I have been coming to the point where I love the “set it and forget it” aspect of the bread machine (at least for the sandwich bread to feed “the house” – I’m still hand crafting a lot of other stuff to satisfy my public…)

The other obvious tool in my arsenal was – you guessed it – a pre ferment. But not just any pre ferment, a firm levain.

“Why?” you ask.  Well, a firm pre ferment will tend to add strength (due to the acids that develop in a pre ferment and the lesser amount of protease action because the pre ferment is relatively dry) and a sourdough based pre ferment will add more acids because of the nature of the leavening.

As we wind on in this saga of me inexplicably becoming intrigued with this appliance, I make an observation: discussions on these pages pushed me to try the same formula with a firm commercially yeasted pre ferment.  Although the bread was certainly edible, it did not have the same texture nor did it rise as high as the sourdough version. If I were baking by hand, I would have to wonder if I had unconsciously done something differently – but with the machine, the cycle marches on.  So even though I “kinda” knew that sourdough would result in a stronger dough, I’m a lot more convinced of it now.

Other than that, the only thing I needed to do was up the hydration a bit and jigger the sweeteners and butter.  No long, drawn out story.

I did, however, avail myself of the “Sourdough starter” cycle on my machine (a Zojirushi Virtuoso) to mix the pre ferment.  This could just as easily have been done by hand in a bowl, but for those who don’t want that inconvenience; it turns out to be a good option.  I didn’t want the fast rise that would be engendered by the “rise” cycle – nor did I want to stay up way past my bedtime to wait for the thing.  So, I cancelled the cycle after the mix and then (had it fit into my proofer – or if my night time kitchen temperatures were warm enough) I could just cover the pan and let it proof overnight.

So, without further ado, here we go with a formula and some pictures.

Since this is a bread machine post, I will present the formula two ways, in the Bread Baker’s Guild of America format and in “recipe list” format.  For those of you just beginning to practice your baker’s math this is a good opportunity to see how the “list” format easily translates into what can be a perplexing little grid.

Bread Machine 100% Whole wheat

Firm Levain Pre Ferment (40% of the total flour pre fermented)

Whole Wheat Flour                                         228 g

Water                                                                   173 g

Seed (taken from storage starter)             5g

Mix the above ingredient (by hand or using a bread machine mix only cycle). Cover and allow to rise overnight until mature (doubled) – 8-12 hours at 76F.

The next day (or when the Pre Ferment is mature) Load the pan of the bread machine in this order:

Water (40F)                                        277 g

Agave Nectar                                     40 g

Molasses                                             24 g

Firm Levain                                         all of it, broken up into roughly 2 T chunks distributed over the bottom of the pan

Dry Milk                                               9 g

Salt                                                         11 g

Butter (room temperature)        46 g

Whole Wheat flour                         342 g

Instant Yeast

 (in small well on top of flour)     3 g

Use “Whole Wheat” cycle on the bread machine and bake per instructions.

Is it a work of food art? Well, no.  But as I looked at it I thought “This is a nice, solid, bread.  Nothing wrong with it.” Not too shabby. No vital wheat gluten. Tastes good, too…

beakernz's picture

noobie, very confused over recipes calling for "1 cup sourdough starter", do they mean pre-ferment?

So I've got a good healthy starter.  I feed it once a day which is removing all of it but 50grams, then adding 100gms water and 70gms organic rye.  Over the next 24hrs it doubles and I repeat the process.  Now I have all this leftover starter I do not want to throw away.  I then see recipes for pancackes and biscuits.  They call for 1 cup starter + 1 cup flour etc.  But someone here in new zealand says to me that that would be WAY too powerful, that they would only need 1 cup starter to make 75 loaves.  So is the recipe right?  I actually use an entire cup of raw starter?  I don't want to cook something nasty or overpowering that makes me ill.  If it's pre-ferment then why don't the recipes call for it.  I'm not even sure how to make a pre-ferment that meets the requirements of said recipes so that I have "1 cup starter".  Thanks for any help clearing this up.

evonlim's picture

sourdough loaf with raisin yeast water and red wine

after reading last couple of week's blogs.. lead me to experiment with new ingredients.

with kiki's help, she gave me this tutorial website on yeast water

started soaking my raisins with water in a clean jar as showed in the video. to my surprised it work wonderfully.. on the 8th day i used it to make this bread. mixed 75gram yeast water with 75gram of bread flour, left it 8 hours in room temperature to mature. 

my formula

bread flour   100%     750gram

water             75%      563gram 

salt               1.5%       11  gram

starter                         150gram

since i have some 320gram of Chateau Charmail 2009 left over from saturday's dinner, thinking to myself why not.. so i did :) water 243gram. mixed with AP flour and left overnight. 2nd day added the starter. autolysed for 30mins. added the salt after. rest for 40 mins and SF. realising i had a couple of small Tasmanian purple carrot in the fridge.. i grated and added in the dough when i did my first SF. 1/2 cup of sunflower seeds and 1/2cup of soaked n drained raisins went into the dough as well. (this is because i am baking for a friend who loves raisins!!) 2nd SF after 40mins.

left it rest for another 40mins, put in the fridge to retard. 3rd day, in the afternoon after my work, took dough out from fridge. rested for an hour, scrapped out from bowl and divide into two and preshape. rest for 30mins. transfered into 2 small loaf pan. covered and proof for 1 hour. score the top, sprinkled with blue poppy seeds. baked 450F for 20 mins covered with aluminium foil. uncovered for further 15 mins. 

it smells divine during baking. lots of depth in flavor ends with a nice bitter in the mouth as you chew on it.

my lucky experiment inspired by kiki, Ian and Yuko :) thank you

happy me


more pictures..






dazzer24's picture

sourdough preferment

Hi all

I've been baking sourdoughs a couple of months and messed about with all sorts of variables. Lots of starter,little starter,short fermentation/long prove after shaping, fridge proving,warm water, cold water and many more. I've a tendency to change more than one variable at once too which doesnt help evaluation! Just cant help myself;)

Anyway current method

Mix 50g starter, 200g flour and 125g of water. Cover and ferment at approx 70f for approx 16 hours.

Mix the fermented batch with 304g flour and 221g water achieving 70% hydration(my starter is 100%)

Making 900g in total

Knead this mixture for 10 to 15 mins adding 8g of salt after 10 mins or so.

Pop back in bowl and do 3 stretch and folds at approx 40 min intervals

I then split the dough in two for 2 mini loaves. degass a little then preshape into boules. Final shape 10 mins later.

Into baskets, into plastic bags and prove at 70f for about 2 hours.

Bake! Im lucky to have an oven with multifunction including bottom heat only function..this has transformed my ability to achieve bloom/ I've realised it anyway!

I bottom heat for first 10/12mins, then fan only 15 mins,then off the stone and 5 to 10 mins with top and bottom heat to crisp up the bottom as well.

I suppose in am I doing? My loaves look great(in my opinion-feel free to critique!), have a nice rich flavour, soft texture and lovely fruity aroma-not that much sour flavour though.

I'm thinking should I be bulk fermenting the whole dough? I suppose currently I'm simply feeding a small amount of starter and letting it grow overnight..? I think i read somewhere yeasts grow more rapidly at room temps but the lactobacillus are responsible for more of the sour notes and these develop more(or more in proportion to the yeasts) when in the fridge. Have I got this right? 

I had previously been fermenting the whole dough for 4-5 hours and then shaping and proving overnight in the fridge. This has the advantage of course of being able to bake first thing in the morning but seems a little less controllable?

Sorry I'm writing an epic here! I'll stop now and be very grateful for any thoughts/feedback.

Cheers and thanks for your patience. Hopefully I'll be able to help people day!


Frequent Flyer's picture
Frequent Flyer

Eric's Favorite Rye

....or my "tinkered with" version.  I love Eric's bread but needed to refrigerate the dough for time sake and chose to do that after shaping.  I shaped two loaves (used 1/2 recipe), placed in a couche, covered with oil sprayed plastic and refrigerated immediately.  The next morning I removed the loaves, placed on the counter while the oven preheated (about 30 to 45 minutes) and baked on a stone with steam for 12 minutes.  I rotated the loaves, and baked (I guess) another 30 minutes at 375F.  

Other variations were molasses vs sugar (about the same weight) and an egg glaze.  I've not got the cornstarch glaze method working right now.


hlæfdige's picture

In search of a genuine pumpernickel recipe


Hopefully some kind soul can help as my searches of the site have yielded nothing (assuming I have not missed something obvious).

Essentially I'm in search of a genuine recipe for pumpernickel, everything I've found so far on the internet seems to be a bastardised recipe relying on copious amounts of black treackle / molasses to artifically mimick the maillard reaction.

I got my hands on a book called "The handbook of dough fermentations" which has a chapter on pumpernickel that goes into some detail on the technical background of the loaf.  Unfortunatley it does not provide any sample formulas.

Thanks so much for your time !

cmylime's picture

Southern style yeast rolls

 Cafeteria Lady Rolls

 Ready in: 2 hrs
 Serves/Makes:   16   

4 cups flour
2 tablespoons yeast
1 tablespoon salt
3 tablespoons sugar
1/2 cup melted shortening (may use butter)
1 3/4 cup warm milk


Add yeast to warm milk and let sit 1 minute; stir and add melted shortening.

Have dry ingredients ready and add to milk. Slowly mix on medium speed until the dough no longer sticks to the side of the bowl.

Place dough in a well-greased bowl and let rise until doubled in bulk. Stir down and form into rolls (note that dough is sticky) and let them rise again. Bake at 425degrees until brown and brush with butter while hot.

I halved this to make 8 rolls.  I used 1/2 Tbsp yeast and about half of everything else.


Dan Barclay's picture
Dan Barclay

Beginner with an active starter... Next steps

Hi Guys

I am completely new to the world of sourdough but have been baking fairly regularly for a few months now. I have an active starter which doubles between feeds (in about six hours) and have made a few loafs so far which, as far as I can tell, have been fairly successful. However the starter is only about 600g at its peak, so can really only make one loaf each time. I was wondering how I go about increasing the size of the starter without over feeding it. I tried adding more flour/water without discarding any to bake but it didn't double at all so thought perhaps I added too much.

Any help would be much appreciated. 



breadforfun's picture

Tartine Whole Wheat miche & boule

What can I say, I like big loaves.  I have made the Tartine Country bread a number of times in all sizes, from 500 gm to 2 kg, and am always happy with the results.  I refreshed my starter when I returned from a week away with the intention of trying the whole wheat loaf as well.  On my last visit to Central Milling I picked up a 5# bag of Acme Organic Whole Wheat flour, so what better bread to test it on.  I pretty much followed the method in the book, with a small deviation because I forgot to hold back the required 50 gm of water to add with the salt after the autolyse, so I had to add some extra water.  The formula was supposed to be 80% hydration, and the extra water took it up to 83%.  The formula is quite basic:

Levain          200 gm    20%

Water           830 gm    83%

WW flour    700 gm     70%

AP flour       300 gm     30%

Salt                  20 gm      2%

I made a double batch and shaped them into 1 miche at 1950 gm and three smaller boules at around 700 gm each.  The bulk ferment was about 4 hours at a controlled 74˚F with S&F at 30, 60, 90, 120 and 180 min.  After shaping, I retarded the miche and one smaller loaf overnight (about 16 hours), and continued proofing two of the smaller loaves for 3 hours.  Baking was on a stone heated to 500˚F which was reduced to 460˚ when the boules were peeled into the oven.  Steam for 15 min. then turn on the convection to 425˚ for 20 min. more, rotating as necessary.  For the miche, the convection temperature was 415˚ and the convection bake time was 35 min. 

The loaves showed lovely bloom and grigne.  I have been playing with different scoring lately, and I like the effect using two interlocking half-circles.  A bit cumbersome to do on the large loaf, but it's a nice look.  I think the bake times could have been a bit longer.  Though the loaves registered over 205˚ and were left in a cooling oven with the door cracked open for 10 min., I didn't get the nice singing and crackling crust like I do on the Country Loaf, which I suppose is due to the higher hydration dough and not being baked out completely. 

The crumb on this bread is sublime - airy and with a fairly soft chew.  The flavor is nutty and wheaty with a distinct tang on the retarded loaves (I didn't get to try the others).  Curiously, the 2% salt seemed a little on the light side.  This photo is the crumb of the smaller loaf - I'll post the miche once I cut it.  The final size of the miche was about 10 inch diameter and 4 inch tall at the dome.